4 ms·

Signal should be federated. This censorship problem would not exist, or would be organically routed around, were the service federated. Without federation, Sig

Signal should be federated. This censorship problem would not exist, or would be organically routed around, were the service federated. Without federation, Signal is just another stepping stone in the long path of eventually abandoned instant messengers, all the way back from ICQ. We will get to an SMTP-like protocol, and email-like service, at some point. If not Signal, some other one.

vineyardmike 6y ago
> organically routed around Do any SMTP servers still allow organic routing? I was under the impression that all modern servers have extremely cumbersome auth/dkim and its hard to not be GMail and still send a real msg and have it arrive
- BenjiWiebe 6y ago
  DKIM/SPF really aren't that bad. And you can not be Gmail and still get emails sent. Except Outlook/Hotmail/etc will randomly start blocking your emails, and only unblock your emails after you pester them enough.
ignoramous 6y ago
Signal was federated at one point: https://lwn.net/Articles/687294/ https://lwn.net/Articles/687294/ Moxie, one of the original authors of the Signal protocol, said federation severely restricted flexibility and so they had to move on: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11668912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11668912
- Evidlo 6y ago
  They "federated" with only one other server run by the Cyanogenmod team. Agreeing on and keeping some spec up to date is a solved problem. Just ask any web standards committee.
WookieRushing 6y ago
I’m not so sure. Moxies reasons about how federation leads to protocol development slowing and then freezing are solid. It’s why we re not using smtp for chat. SMTP can’t be extended enough so replacements are built instead. Similarly if signal federated, eventually it would freeze and a few years later users would move to wherever they could get new features. Federation is a good thing but only when the protocol is finished or if there is a forcing mechanism to allow updates to the protocol. ethereum/Bitcoin are good examples as they have flag days that force the value of currency to be in the balance to keep the protocol moving forward.
- rthomas6 6y ago
  I don't see what prevents updating as long as you don't care about fragmentation. You probably can't compile all brand new software on a very old Linux kernel, but who cares. I mean yeah, you'll have to care more about fragmentation, but it's not all or nothing. You'll still be able to update the protocol, you just have to make breaking changes less often. I think XMPP is a better comparison than SMTP. In its heyday, XMPP had several clients, some with different proprietary extensions, and all the core functionality basically worked across all the clients. Though it turns out some of the messengers I thought were XMPP were actually different protocols that XMPP could work with. Imagine that. People still use it too, though it's not as popular as it was in the 2000s.
- admax88q 6y ago
  Honestly deltachat works great and its chat over smtp and imap. Im not sure "chat" needs this much constant "innovation" at the protocol level. Most of the issues with email are client UX more so than actual protocol limitations.
- beermonster 6y ago
  Not really kept up with the latest with this, but chat over IMAP is a thing https://archive.fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/coi/ https://archive.fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/coi/
robertfw 6y ago
Have a look at matrix - https://matrix.org/ https://matrix.org/

vineyardmike 6y ago

> organically routed around Do any SMTP servers still allow organic routing? I was under the impression that all modern servers have extremely cumbersome auth/dkim and its hard to not be GMail and still send a real msg and have it arrive

BenjiWiebe 6y ago
DKIM/SPF really aren't that bad. And you can not be Gmail and still get emails sent. Except Outlook/Hotmail/etc will randomly start blocking your emails, and only unblock your emails after you pester them enough.

ignoramous 6y ago

Signal was federated at one point: https://lwn.net/Articles/687294/ https://lwn.net/Articles/687294/ Moxie, one of the original authors of the Signal protocol, said federation severely restricted flexibility and so they had to move on: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11668912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11668912

Evidlo 6y ago
They "federated" with only one other server run by the Cyanogenmod team. Agreeing on and keeping some spec up to date is a solved problem. Just ask any web standards committee.

WookieRushing 6y ago

I’m not so sure. Moxies reasons about how federation leads to protocol development slowing and then freezing are solid. It’s why we re not using smtp for chat. SMTP can’t be extended enough so replacements are built instead. Similarly if signal federated, eventually it would freeze and a few years later users would move to wherever they could get new features. Federation is a good thing but only when the protocol is finished or if there is a forcing mechanism to allow updates to the protocol. ethereum/Bitcoin are good examples as they have flag days that force the value of currency to be in the balance to keep the protocol moving forward.

rthomas6 6y ago
I don't see what prevents updating as long as you don't care about fragmentation. You probably can't compile all brand new software on a very old Linux kernel, but who cares. I mean yeah, you'll have to care more about fragmentation, but it's not all or nothing. You'll still be able to update the protocol, you just have to make breaking changes less often. I think XMPP is a better comparison than SMTP. In its heyday, XMPP had several clients, some with different proprietary extensions, and all the core functionality basically worked across all the clients. Though it turns out some of the messengers I thought were XMPP were actually different protocols that XMPP could work with. Imagine that. People still use it too, though it's not as popular as it was in the 2000s.
admax88q 6y ago
Honestly deltachat works great and its chat over smtp and imap. Im not sure "chat" needs this much constant "innovation" at the protocol level. Most of the issues with email are client UX more so than actual protocol limitations.
beermonster 6y ago
Not really kept up with the latest with this, but chat over IMAP is a thing https://archive.fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/coi/ https://archive.fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/coi/

robertfw 6y ago

Have a look at matrix - https://matrix.org/ https://matrix.org/