14 ms·

Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

84 points by apsec112 6y ago

JoeyBananas 6y ago
> The Last Mile’s program is defying the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate. In its 10 years existence, there has been zero recidivism amongst it’s nearly 100 graduates, graduates that include Jason Jones. Those numbers tell you everything you need to know. They're not "solving mass incarceration" any time soon.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate Holy shizz, that's a lot. It's as if US laws and prisons aren't there to rehabilitate an individual but to turn him against society for good, making him a returning "customer" so that certain interest groups can keep profiting. But that's just probably my imagination running wild.
  - hn8788 6y ago
    One theory I've heard is that for some particularly bad areas, Baltimore for example, the purpose is to keep people off the street for as long as possible to give young people a chance to grow up without seeing crime as a viable career choice. The idea being that some neigbhorhoods are too far gone, and rehabilitation won't work when people will be released from prison back into crime infested neighborhoods. Whether it's effective or not, I don't know.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - aparsons 6y ago
      You hit the nail on the head. This started during the HW/first Clinton admin
  - BeetleB 6y ago
    Monday's segment of Marketplace is worth listening to. The gist of it was that in many (all?) places in the US, a landlord can be sued if they rent to someone who has a criminal record who then went on commit another crime. As a result, few landlords will rent to them. I hang out on real estate forums and have never met anyone who would rent to someone with a criminal record. Getting a job is a whole other problem. That's just one example of the challenges they face. https://www.marketplace.org/2021/02/01/the-afterlife-of-mass-incarceration/ https://www.marketplace.org/2021/02/01/the-afterlife-of-mass... I can't find it right now, but there's also a TED talk by a former state official (state senator?) who committed a crime and spent a very brief time in prison. It was eye opening to him how he was denied pretty much everything once he got out, and only through his connections was he able to get employment. Couple that with the fact that the US is the country that imprisons the highest proportion of its own citizens, and it's terrifying.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      That's pretty bonkers since in most European countries, your crime record is only relevant for certain jobs where money or sensitive data is at stake and nothing else. How does society expect ex-cons to become functioning members again if they're denied housing and employment?
      - ndiscussion 6y ago
        It's unfortunately a self-feeding circle... in the US, if you see a felon, it's likely they will go on to commit more felonies, so you won't want to hire them. But if you don't hire them, they may be forced to commit other felonies... tragedy of the commons I suppose, just like shopping at Walmart is bad for the community but good for the individual. It's hard to overcome these effects without legislation, but noone (sane) wants to be in the community that starts it.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > >the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate > Holy shizz, that's a lot. As far as I can tell that’s the rearrest rate, and possibly only the rearrest rate for state offenders, which is higher than for federal (it doesn't exactly match any of the sources I've found, but that's what it seems closest to.) Reconviction (including determination of a parole violation) rates are much lower (somewhere between 50-60% im various sources. And both are heavily tied to other demographic, offense type, and criminal history factors that I'm going to guess are also very influential in selection for the program, so the the expected recidivism rate for those entering the program—whether measured by rearrest, reconviction, or any other standard—would probably be much lower than the overall criminal population. > It's as if US laws and prisons aren't there to rehabilitate an individual but to turn him against society for good, To the extent something like that is a factor, it's almost backwards: US criminal laws are very disproportionately used against people that society has turned against for reasons other than criminality. Now, it's true that the criminal “justice” system isn't rehabilitative, but it's targets not being turned against society further by it wouldn't protect them from being retargeted.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  Quite possibly they are educating people out of the 17% that would not be re-offenders. However, is is bloody obvious that if a person cant survive/earn money legally, they will do so illegally - so the system of 'justice' is just an offence to the senses cause it causes more crime.
  - haram_masala 6y ago
    To quote Thomas Frank, we have created a system that offers most people two choices: “toil without hope, or go to jail.”
- EForEndeavour 6y ago
  It's especially strange to me to see such future-blind thinking in the message board of the world's most famous startup accelerator. The Last Mile's website (https://thelastmile.org/about/ https://thelastmile.org/about/) lists not 100 graduates, but 240 "returned citizens" who have successfully rejoined society, still with a 0% recidivism rate. This article said they only have 100 or so graduates, and the article was published in January of last year. Assuming the article's graduates are the same thing as the website's returned citizens, that means that The Last Mile has managed to produce about 1.4 times more graduates in the past year than in the entire previous 10 years combined. Healthy skepticism is healthy, but to dismiss this program's meteoric rise, huge potential, and noble cause without even a cursory attempt to understand them is being intentionally obtuse.
  - Layke1123 6y ago
    I suspect it's likely to promote a certain viewpoint. Hacker News has a vested interest in not questioning a system that it benefits from. For instance, anyone who might be critical of a US historical policy typically has "no business" here because politics cause ideological flame wars, or some other half baked reasoning. While it is very encouraging at fostering dialogue on tech, once the dialogue goes against Hacker News's ultimate purpose, to make money, that's where you start to see weird accounts and strangely offensive comments questioning the act of questioning.
- anon_tor_12345 6y ago
  hn with the dismissive, lowbrow, comments. you realize that because they're in prison there's this other thing that prevents them from graduating to a job... namely their prison terms. just so we're clear: that there have only been 100 grads that successfully didn't return to prison doesn't tell you anything about how many finished the program and haven't been released yet. moreover, a small program with limited funding running in a few prisons not solving mass incarceration isn't anymore surprising than a thumb in a dyke not preventing a flood. instead you should be saying/asking/imagining: what would the completion and recidivism rate be if this program ran in all prisons. or even better: what would the incarceration rate be if this kind of vocational training were available for free in all poor neighborhoods.
llarsson 6y ago
Great initiative! Hopefully employers will not overlook these candidates because of their criminal record.
- dudul 6y ago
  Good luck with that unfortunately. I can't remember the last time I joined a company that didn't run a background check on me.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    Running a background check doesn’t mean you can’t accept certain negative content in that background. A background check produces information not a decision.
    - WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
      Usually a background check just means a credit check.
      - dudul 6y ago
        I meant it as a check for criminal record.
        WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
        Yeah, usually it's just a credit check... people are cheap and corporations are cheaper.
  - gowld 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_the_Box#California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_the_Box#California > California Fair Chance Act, which assists Californians with conviction histories to re-enter society by prohibiting employers from asking about conviction history before making a job offer.
- 6y ago
underseacables 6y ago
In 2011-2014 I taught English and mathematics as a volunteer in a prison, and unless you’ve been there, nothing can prepare you for how truly awful America’s prison system is. The federal system is a little better, but when you get down to state prisons it gets exponentially worse. In my humble opinion, we have a vengeance and retribution mentality towards prisons in this country, when we should have a rehabilitation and re-integration focus.
- lldbg 6y ago
  I think that retribution, which is of course the principal component of justice, is a key part of prisons. Somewhere the scales must be balanced, and if not in prisons, where then? Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? That is not to say that prisons should be blind to the fact that inmates will eventually be released. There are plenty of people who have committed no crime, but go hungry. Where is their free lunch?
  - veryfancy 6y ago
    > Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? Yes.
  - barrkel 6y ago
    What makes you think retribution is the principal component of justice? That seems very wrong to me. Justice is a deep concept - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice/ is an overview, and it's not short - but on plain sight, I'd say that since it is the public, through the medium of government, that enforces justice, it should do so with a utilitarian view. Society has a vital interest in reintegrating people who have been punished, so that they don't fall back into a life of crime as the only life available to them. If justice is mostly retribution, then society is not well served. Even further, society can profit from the valuable contributions of people who've learned the error of their ways.
    - slibhb 6y ago
Guest42 6y ago
Entry level tech jobs are remarkably scarce and difficult to obtain/maintain. Even with a masters and experience it takes 100+ applications. Most companies don’t hire programmers and the ones that do often contract it out overseas. I know there are caveats and counter-anecdotes but this has been my set of observations over the last 10 years.
- shiftpgdn 6y ago
  It is beyond frustrating to me to see how many jobs get filled with fraudulent H1B employees when there is no shortage of entry level coders available domestically.
  - ppeetteerr 6y ago
    They don't have to be fraudulent. It's easier to fill with an H1B candidate with experience than with a fresh engineer with a recent degree.
    - shiftpgdn 6y ago
      A lot (and I mean 90%+) of H1Bs are outright lying about their experience in the tech field. At least from my short time doing hiring for a position in Texas. I eventually went to our management and got them to stop listening to recruiting body shops and hire someone local.
      - kyawzazaw 6y ago
        > A lot (and I mean 90%+) of H1Bs How can you say that with such confidence? Maybe the issue is your workplace is using staffing agency, primarily?
        shiftpgdn 6y ago
        Because I have been around a long time and know lots of other people in the software world who have had similar experiences.
semanticsbitch 6y ago
When you can't use H1Bs to get cheap work, go for the incarcerated. Why bother caring for skilled middle class workers.
iab 6y ago
Haven’t they been punished enough
- aparsons 6y ago
  Haha, I chuckled at this :)
dr-detroit 6y ago
Its official: the bars are there to keep us in not them
0xdeadbeefbabe 6y ago
I wonder if they'll have more empathy than a typical UI designer.
dint 6y ago
See also: UnderDog Devs, a support group for formerly incarcerated developers transitioning into the software industry. https://twitter.com/UnderdogDevs https://twitter.com/UnderdogDevs
jariel 6y ago
This seems like a neat idea, but wouldn't it be more pragmatic to teach them skills they can use more universally to get jobs for which maybe there's much more cultural inclination? Like carpentry, electrician, construction, plumbing? Maybe it's prejudiced, but all the people I know that 'got in trouble' eventually made their way to construction crews. It worked well. White Collar jobs come along with a ton of other social baggage and expectations (and prejudices) whereas highly skilled labour tends not to. And there are construction jobs literally everywhere. Finally, they can pay very well. Everyone is in need of a good carpenter.
- MikeDelta 6y ago
  You are right. I don't want to sound bitter but I guess this is easier to teach by trainers who are not very skilled or experienced; following a bootcamp might be enough to write a programming texbook for beginners and the inexperienced not able to tell the difference, whereas making a cabinet by an inexperienced trainer will immediately be obvious. In addition, I can imagine there is more funding available for this and therefore easier to milk.
- gowld 6y ago
  Not everyone has the ability to do a physically laborious job.
- timoth3y 6y ago
  > Like carpentry, electrician, construction, plumbing? This may not be a popular opinion on HN, but it is much harder to learn how to be a passible electrician or plumber than it is to learn how to be a passible programer. I worked plenty of construction jobs when I was younger. Electricians and plumbers are blue-collar jobs, but they tend to be pretty smart people.
  - the_only_law 6y ago
    > This may not be a popular opinion on HN, but it is much harder to learn how to be a passible electrician or plumber than it is to learn how to be a passible programer. Perhaps another unpopular opinion, but you don’t even have to be a good programmer to make what most people would consider decent money. Is this the same for any trades?
StillBored 6y ago
This is nice and all, but why is everyone focused on "coding" trade schools? Can you really learn enough to make $200k a year in a "boot camp" style coding school? If so, why not doctors and lawyers too? So, i'm not a big supporter of these things because I think it trivializes the amount of effort it actually takes to be a useful team member. The people I work with are doing the logical equivalent of rebuilding the flight control surfaces of a helicopter while its flying in formation. These aren't the kinds of skills you learn in 6 weeks. Many of us have years of formal schooling combined with 10x that in personal learning hours before we even landed our first jobs. Add on a decade+ of professional work experience/etc. I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but I suspect that if someone tried to measure the knowledge required for some of these jobs people on this board hold, it would dwarf pretty much all but a few other professions. Its also not to say, that its not possible to be productive with a couple years of HS/AP level comp-sci classes and a year or two of toy programs (I landed my first programming job in HS, making barely more than minimum wage). Only that those jobs are the floor, and much harder to come by now that everyone and their brother is learning coding. So frankly, some people have the interest/drive/aptitude into making software engineering their life, and some peoples strengths lie elsewhere. I think its doing everyone a disservice not to provide other options to prisoners, be that AC repair, or law degrees.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  At my company, we've had two people transfer over from non-dev department to our dev department after going through a coding bootcamp, and both have worked out well. They come in pretty junior, of course, and they're not making $200k either, but I'd say that anyone with the right mindset can learn what they need to learn at a bootcamp as easily as they can in an undergrad program, and anyone without the right mindset is going to struggle with either. There is MUCH more pure memorization required for doctors and lawyers, and it's not even close. That said, I agree overall: software development shouldn't be the only thing taught in prison--or any other similar program.
- gowld 6y ago
  Coding school are popular because they are the easiest to automate with computer code. Anyway, everyone starts at entry-level before they get 10 years of experience.
smattiso 6y ago
If all you are learning is how to build a React site you are going to have a bad time in a few years.
ExcavateGrandMa 6y ago
A very good argument to survey the web :Ð
paradox242 6y ago
This seems like a waste of time unless society also reforms its hiring practices.
ralphc 6y ago
Tangential question - is the ability to "code", i.e. develop software, an innate talent or can anyone learn to do it well enough with sufficient training and self-motivated work? Will there be a percentage of incarcerated, or bootcamp students for that matter, that just won't get it?
- fendy3002 6y ago
  My personal opinion based on experience, it's similar with driving but harder. If you want to learn, anyone will eventually able to achieve "average" / "good" level. But only a portion with aligned interest, dedication and passion can breakthrough to expert / master level. And for those who haven't had any interest on those topics and don't want to try won't be able to.
  - aparsons 6y ago
    Disagree on this analogy. The standard deviation in the driving ability curve is much smaller than the one for coding ability. There are a TON of mediocre coders who many companies won’t touch. The other commenter’s basketball analogy is more apt.
- timoth3y 6y ago
  It's like playing basketball or playing golf. Almost anyone can learn to do it and to enjoy it. But to be really good takes years of effort and probably some natural talent as well.
nuker 6y ago
Every decent heist movie I saw had one coder in the team.
- cm2187 6y ago
  Who also seems to be a graphics artist with beautiful 3d animations of the heist.
chrismcb 6y ago
Can we please stop discriminating ex-cons? Stop asking them this on job applications and hosting contacts
- smabie 6y ago
  Then people just discriminate on the basis or race/appearances. I don't think there's any getting around the fact that employers want to know this information and will try and infer it if they don't have it.
- ryanmarsh 6y ago
  Certain fields legitimately should ask. If you’ve been convicted of financial crimes or theft a bank should know before hiring you. Likewise schools should know if you’ve hurt children before.
  - aparsons 6y ago
    100%. We’re seeing a huge (loud) “help the cons” movement, but the fact is a lot of them are bad people and we need to tread carefully. I for one will certainly not hire somebody who has committed certain classes of crimes, no matter how “rehabilitated” they claim they are.
lazy_dumb_coder 6y ago
> On average, it cost about $75,000 a year to house a prisoner in a state like California Damn, that's, um, a lot. And here I am, with a degree in CS and over 2 years of experience, earning less than one-third of it in my third world country.
- ryanmarsh 6y ago
  I bet it costs less than half that in Texas. If that’s any consolation.
Melting_Harps 6y ago
Huh, I wonder if they're going to let Ross Ulbrict get back online. I mean the guy is serving Double Life +40. Good the last mile, I hope these prisoners find some solace in these opportunities and can channel their time and energy into a skill like this. I'm not sure how many tech firms will take ex-cons, but maybe this changes things as so many tech firms will turn a blind eye to drug related matters now.
lord_washington 6y ago
Is there any salary data available for ex-cons in tech jobs? Ideally they shouldn't be discriminated against but I am not sure if that's the norm.
jrootabega 6y ago
You could also look at this from another perspective: teach prisoners coding so we have another source of desperate and obedient just-barely-competent tech grunts to swamp our actual experts and turn them into babysitters and quality control while in turn driving down their wages.
ryanmarsh 6y ago
I think it’s a wonderful idea but it’s going to require a ton of help both political, social, and economic to really become a thing that makes a difference. State prisons in the US are hell holes. The facilities are terrible, the people (many) are legitimately terrible, and the staff are terrible too. First you have to find a place where you can have computers at all, no googling for answers because they won’t be allowed internet access. Then you have to select from the general population, people who won’t destroy the machines, have the social and study skills required to complete the training. It’ll be very few. Then there’s the absolutely dipshit power tripping staff. Do you know of any good teachers who want to drive out to a Texas prison in the middle of nowhere each day to teach programming? I have a brother in state prison who would love a program like this. He’s also far more intelligent than me. But to hear him describe the people and conditions, it’s really bad. I want this to be a thing for inmates but it’s going to require a lot of work.
123throwmeaway 6y ago
I’m a felon with a computer science degree from a well known university ( not MIT level ). I have 8 years of progressive industry experience. Granted I didn’t get the felony until I already was working for many years, and it’s a felony DWI, and I’ve never been to jail

84 points by apsec112 6y ago

> The Last Mile’s program is defying the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate. In its 10 years existence, there has been zero recidivism amongst it’s nearly 100 graduates, graduates that include Jason Jones. Those numbers tell you everything you need to know. They're not "solving mass incarceration" any time soon.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate Holy shizz, that's a lot. It's as if US laws and prisons aren't there to rehabilitate an individual but to turn him against society for good, making him a returning "customer" so that certain interest groups can keep profiting. But that's just probably my imagination running wild.
- hn8788 6y ago
  One theory I've heard is that for some particularly bad areas, Baltimore for example, the purpose is to keep people off the street for as long as possible to give young people a chance to grow up without seeing crime as a viable career choice. The idea being that some neigbhorhoods are too far gone, and rehabilitation won't work when people will be released from prison back into crime infested neighborhoods. Whether it's effective or not, I don't know.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - aparsons 6y ago
    You hit the nail on the head. This started during the HW/first Clinton admin
- BeetleB 6y ago
  Monday's segment of Marketplace is worth listening to. The gist of it was that in many (all?) places in the US, a landlord can be sued if they rent to someone who has a criminal record who then went on commit another crime. As a result, few landlords will rent to them. I hang out on real estate forums and have never met anyone who would rent to someone with a criminal record. Getting a job is a whole other problem. That's just one example of the challenges they face. https://www.marketplace.org/2021/02/01/the-afterlife-of-mass-incarceration/ https://www.marketplace.org/2021/02/01/the-afterlife-of-mass... I can't find it right now, but there's also a TED talk by a former state official (state senator?) who committed a crime and spent a very brief time in prison. It was eye opening to him how he was denied pretty much everything once he got out, and only through his connections was he able to get employment. Couple that with the fact that the US is the country that imprisons the highest proportion of its own citizens, and it's terrifying.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    That's pretty bonkers since in most European countries, your crime record is only relevant for certain jobs where money or sensitive data is at stake and nothing else. How does society expect ex-cons to become functioning members again if they're denied housing and employment?
    - ndiscussion 6y ago
      It's unfortunately a self-feeding circle... in the US, if you see a felon, it's likely they will go on to commit more felonies, so you won't want to hire them. But if you don't hire them, they may be forced to commit other felonies... tragedy of the commons I suppose, just like shopping at Walmart is bad for the community but good for the individual. It's hard to overcome these effects without legislation, but noone (sane) wants to be in the community that starts it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > >the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate > Holy shizz, that's a lot. As far as I can tell that’s the rearrest rate, and possibly only the rearrest rate for state offenders, which is higher than for federal (it doesn't exactly match any of the sources I've found, but that's what it seems closest to.) Reconviction (including determination of a parole violation) rates are much lower (somewhere between 50-60% im various sources. And both are heavily tied to other demographic, offense type, and criminal history factors that I'm going to guess are also very influential in selection for the program, so the the expected recidivism rate for those entering the program—whether measured by rearrest, reconviction, or any other standard—would probably be much lower than the overall criminal population. > It's as if US laws and prisons aren't there to rehabilitate an individual but to turn him against society for good, To the extent something like that is a factor, it's almost backwards: US criminal laws are very disproportionately used against people that society has turned against for reasons other than criminality. Now, it's true that the criminal “justice” system isn't rehabilitative, but it's targets not being turned against society further by it wouldn't protect them from being retargeted.
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Quite possibly they are educating people out of the 17% that would not be re-offenders. However, is is bloody obvious that if a person cant survive/earn money legally, they will do so illegally - so the system of 'justice' is just an offence to the senses cause it causes more crime.
- haram_masala 6y ago
  To quote Thomas Frank, we have created a system that offers most people two choices: “toil without hope, or go to jail.”
EForEndeavour 6y ago
It's especially strange to me to see such future-blind thinking in the message board of the world's most famous startup accelerator. The Last Mile's website (https://thelastmile.org/about/ https://thelastmile.org/about/) lists not 100 graduates, but 240 "returned citizens" who have successfully rejoined society, still with a 0% recidivism rate. This article said they only have 100 or so graduates, and the article was published in January of last year. Assuming the article's graduates are the same thing as the website's returned citizens, that means that The Last Mile has managed to produce about 1.4 times more graduates in the past year than in the entire previous 10 years combined. Healthy skepticism is healthy, but to dismiss this program's meteoric rise, huge potential, and noble cause without even a cursory attempt to understand them is being intentionally obtuse.
- Layke1123 6y ago
  I suspect it's likely to promote a certain viewpoint. Hacker News has a vested interest in not questioning a system that it benefits from. For instance, anyone who might be critical of a US historical policy typically has "no business" here because politics cause ideological flame wars, or some other half baked reasoning. While it is very encouraging at fostering dialogue on tech, once the dialogue goes against Hacker News's ultimate purpose, to make money, that's where you start to see weird accounts and strangely offensive comments questioning the act of questioning.
anon_tor_12345 6y ago
hn with the dismissive, lowbrow, comments. you realize that because they're in prison there's this other thing that prevents them from graduating to a job... namely their prison terms. just so we're clear: that there have only been 100 grads that successfully didn't return to prison doesn't tell you anything about how many finished the program and haven't been released yet. moreover, a small program with limited funding running in a few prisons not solving mass incarceration isn't anymore surprising than a thumb in a dyke not preventing a flood. instead you should be saying/asking/imagining: what would the completion and recidivism rate be if this program ran in all prisons. or even better: what would the incarceration rate be if this kind of vocational training were available for free in all poor neighborhoods.

llarsson 6y ago

Great initiative! Hopefully employers will not overlook these candidates because of their criminal record.

dudul 6y ago
Good luck with that unfortunately. I can't remember the last time I joined a company that didn't run a background check on me.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  Running a background check doesn’t mean you can’t accept certain negative content in that background. A background check produces information not a decision.
  - WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
    Usually a background check just means a credit check.
    - dudul 6y ago
      I meant it as a check for criminal record.
      - WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
        Yeah, usually it's just a credit check... people are cheap and corporations are cheaper.
- gowld 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_the_Box#California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_the_Box#California > California Fair Chance Act, which assists Californians with conviction histories to re-enter society by prohibiting employers from asking about conviction history before making a job offer.
6y ago

underseacables 6y ago

In 2011-2014 I taught English and mathematics as a volunteer in a prison, and unless you’ve been there, nothing can prepare you for how truly awful America’s prison system is. The federal system is a little better, but when you get down to state prisons it gets exponentially worse. In my humble opinion, we have a vengeance and retribution mentality towards prisons in this country, when we should have a rehabilitation and re-integration focus.

lldbg 6y ago
I think that retribution, which is of course the principal component of justice, is a key part of prisons. Somewhere the scales must be balanced, and if not in prisons, where then? Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? That is not to say that prisons should be blind to the fact that inmates will eventually be released. There are plenty of people who have committed no crime, but go hungry. Where is their free lunch?
- veryfancy 6y ago
  > Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? Yes.
- barrkel 6y ago
  What makes you think retribution is the principal component of justice? That seems very wrong to me. Justice is a deep concept - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice/ is an overview, and it's not short - but on plain sight, I'd say that since it is the public, through the medium of government, that enforces justice, it should do so with a utilitarian view. Society has a vital interest in reintegrating people who have been punished, so that they don't fall back into a life of crime as the only life available to them. If justice is mostly retribution, then society is not well served. Even further, society can profit from the valuable contributions of people who've learned the error of their ways.
  - slibhb 6y ago

Guest42 6y ago

Entry level tech jobs are remarkably scarce and difficult to obtain/maintain. Even with a masters and experience it takes 100+ applications. Most companies don’t hire programmers and the ones that do often contract it out overseas. I know there are caveats and counter-anecdotes but this has been my set of observations over the last 10 years.

shiftpgdn 6y ago
It is beyond frustrating to me to see how many jobs get filled with fraudulent H1B employees when there is no shortage of entry level coders available domestically.
- ppeetteerr 6y ago
  They don't have to be fraudulent. It's easier to fill with an H1B candidate with experience than with a fresh engineer with a recent degree.
  - shiftpgdn 6y ago
    A lot (and I mean 90%+) of H1Bs are outright lying about their experience in the tech field. At least from my short time doing hiring for a position in Texas. I eventually went to our management and got them to stop listening to recruiting body shops and hire someone local.
    - kyawzazaw 6y ago
      > A lot (and I mean 90%+) of H1Bs How can you say that with such confidence? Maybe the issue is your workplace is using staffing agency, primarily?
      - shiftpgdn 6y ago
        Because I have been around a long time and know lots of other people in the software world who have had similar experiences.

semanticsbitch 6y ago

When you can't use H1Bs to get cheap work, go for the incarcerated. Why bother caring for skilled middle class workers.

iab 6y ago

Haven’t they been punished enough

aparsons 6y ago
Haha, I chuckled at this :)

dr-detroit 6y ago

Its official: the bars are there to keep us in not them

0xdeadbeefbabe 6y ago

I wonder if they'll have more empathy than a typical UI designer.

dint 6y ago

See also: UnderDog Devs, a support group for formerly incarcerated developers transitioning into the software industry. https://twitter.com/UnderdogDevs https://twitter.com/UnderdogDevs

jariel 6y ago

This seems like a neat idea, but wouldn't it be more pragmatic to teach them skills they can use more universally to get jobs for which maybe there's much more cultural inclination? Like carpentry, electrician, construction, plumbing? Maybe it's prejudiced, but all the people I know that 'got in trouble' eventually made their way to construction crews. It worked well. White Collar jobs come along with a ton of other social baggage and expectations (and prejudices) whereas highly skilled labour tends not to. And there are construction jobs literally everywhere. Finally, they can pay very well. Everyone is in need of a good carpenter.

MikeDelta 6y ago
You are right. I don't want to sound bitter but I guess this is easier to teach by trainers who are not very skilled or experienced; following a bootcamp might be enough to write a programming texbook for beginners and the inexperienced not able to tell the difference, whereas making a cabinet by an inexperienced trainer will immediately be obvious. In addition, I can imagine there is more funding available for this and therefore easier to milk.
gowld 6y ago
Not everyone has the ability to do a physically laborious job.
timoth3y 6y ago
> Like carpentry, electrician, construction, plumbing? This may not be a popular opinion on HN, but it is much harder to learn how to be a passible electrician or plumber than it is to learn how to be a passible programer. I worked plenty of construction jobs when I was younger. Electricians and plumbers are blue-collar jobs, but they tend to be pretty smart people.
- the_only_law 6y ago
  > This may not be a popular opinion on HN, but it is much harder to learn how to be a passible electrician or plumber than it is to learn how to be a passible programer. Perhaps another unpopular opinion, but you don’t even have to be a good programmer to make what most people would consider decent money. Is this the same for any trades?

StillBored 6y ago

This is nice and all, but why is everyone focused on "coding" trade schools? Can you really learn enough to make $200k a year in a "boot camp" style coding school? If so, why not doctors and lawyers too? So, i'm not a big supporter of these things because I think it trivializes the amount of effort it actually takes to be a useful team member. The people I work with are doing the logical equivalent of rebuilding the flight control surfaces of a helicopter while its flying in formation. These aren't the kinds of skills you learn in 6 weeks. Many of us have years of formal schooling combined with 10x that in personal learning hours before we even landed our first jobs. Add on a decade+ of professional work experience/etc. I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but I suspect that if someone tried to measure the knowledge required for some of these jobs people on this board hold, it would dwarf pretty much all but a few other professions. Its also not to say, that its not possible to be productive with a couple years of HS/AP level comp-sci classes and a year or two of toy programs (I landed my first programming job in HS, making barely more than minimum wage). Only that those jobs are the floor, and much harder to come by now that everyone and their brother is learning coding. So frankly, some people have the interest/drive/aptitude into making software engineering their life, and some peoples strengths lie elsewhere. I think its doing everyone a disservice not to provide other options to prisoners, be that AC repair, or law degrees.

pwinnski 6y ago
At my company, we've had two people transfer over from non-dev department to our dev department after going through a coding bootcamp, and both have worked out well. They come in pretty junior, of course, and they're not making $200k either, but I'd say that anyone with the right mindset can learn what they need to learn at a bootcamp as easily as they can in an undergrad program, and anyone without the right mindset is going to struggle with either. There is MUCH more pure memorization required for doctors and lawyers, and it's not even close. That said, I agree overall: software development shouldn't be the only thing taught in prison--or any other similar program.
gowld 6y ago
Coding school are popular because they are the easiest to automate with computer code. Anyway, everyone starts at entry-level before they get 10 years of experience.

smattiso 6y ago

If all you are learning is how to build a React site you are going to have a bad time in a few years.

ExcavateGrandMa 6y ago

A very good argument to survey the web :Ð

paradox242 6y ago

This seems like a waste of time unless society also reforms its hiring practices.

ralphc 6y ago

Tangential question - is the ability to "code", i.e. develop software, an innate talent or can anyone learn to do it well enough with sufficient training and self-motivated work? Will there be a percentage of incarcerated, or bootcamp students for that matter, that just won't get it?

fendy3002 6y ago
My personal opinion based on experience, it's similar with driving but harder. If you want to learn, anyone will eventually able to achieve "average" / "good" level. But only a portion with aligned interest, dedication and passion can breakthrough to expert / master level. And for those who haven't had any interest on those topics and don't want to try won't be able to.
- aparsons 6y ago
  Disagree on this analogy. The standard deviation in the driving ability curve is much smaller than the one for coding ability. There are a TON of mediocre coders who many companies won’t touch. The other commenter’s basketball analogy is more apt.
timoth3y 6y ago
It's like playing basketball or playing golf. Almost anyone can learn to do it and to enjoy it. But to be really good takes years of effort and probably some natural talent as well.

nuker 6y ago

Every decent heist movie I saw had one coder in the team.

cm2187 6y ago
Who also seems to be a graphics artist with beautiful 3d animations of the heist.

chrismcb 6y ago

Can we please stop discriminating ex-cons? Stop asking them this on job applications and hosting contacts

smabie 6y ago
Then people just discriminate on the basis or race/appearances. I don't think there's any getting around the fact that employers want to know this information and will try and infer it if they don't have it.
ryanmarsh 6y ago
Certain fields legitimately should ask. If you’ve been convicted of financial crimes or theft a bank should know before hiring you. Likewise schools should know if you’ve hurt children before.
- aparsons 6y ago
  100%. We’re seeing a huge (loud) “help the cons” movement, but the fact is a lot of them are bad people and we need to tread carefully. I for one will certainly not hire somebody who has committed certain classes of crimes, no matter how “rehabilitated” they claim they are.

lazy_dumb_coder 6y ago

> On average, it cost about $75,000 a year to house a prisoner in a state like California Damn, that's, um, a lot. And here I am, with a degree in CS and over 2 years of experience, earning less than one-third of it in my third world country.

ryanmarsh 6y ago
I bet it costs less than half that in Texas. If that’s any consolation.

Melting_Harps 6y ago

Huh, I wonder if they're going to let Ross Ulbrict get back online. I mean the guy is serving Double Life +40. Good the last mile, I hope these prisoners find some solace in these opportunities and can channel their time and energy into a skill like this. I'm not sure how many tech firms will take ex-cons, but maybe this changes things as so many tech firms will turn a blind eye to drug related matters now.

lord_washington 6y ago

Is there any salary data available for ex-cons in tech jobs? Ideally they shouldn't be discriminated against but I am not sure if that's the norm.

jrootabega 6y ago

You could also look at this from another perspective: teach prisoners coding so we have another source of desperate and obedient just-barely-competent tech grunts to swamp our actual experts and turn them into babysitters and quality control while in turn driving down their wages.

ryanmarsh 6y ago

I think it’s a wonderful idea but it’s going to require a ton of help both political, social, and economic to really become a thing that makes a difference. State prisons in the US are hell holes. The facilities are terrible, the people (many) are legitimately terrible, and the staff are terrible too. First you have to find a place where you can have computers at all, no googling for answers because they won’t be allowed internet access. Then you have to select from the general population, people who won’t destroy the machines, have the social and study skills required to complete the training. It’ll be very few. Then there’s the absolutely dipshit power tripping staff. Do you know of any good teachers who want to drive out to a Texas prison in the middle of nowhere each day to teach programming? I have a brother in state prison who would love a program like this. He’s also far more intelligent than me. But to hear him describe the people and conditions, it’s really bad. I want this to be a thing for inmates but it’s going to require a lot of work.

123throwmeaway 6y ago

I’m a felon with a computer science degree from a well known university ( not MIT level ). I have 8 years of progressive industry experience. Granted I didn’t get the felony until I already was working for many years, and it’s a felony DWI, and I’ve never been to jail