7 ms·

Yes, but many car companies are 100 years older than Tesla. They'll probably be going through growing pains for years to come. Rapid expansion at the cost of q

by cjdell 6y ago

Yes, but many car companies are 100 years older than Tesla. They'll probably be going through growing pains for years to come. Rapid expansion at the cost of quality. However, they clearly don't have a demand problem as people are willing to tolerate these issues, for now.

Alupis 6y ago
Tesla famously turned down help from Volkswagen and other major manufacturers. Instead, preferring to reinvent manufacturing, one poorly assembled $75,000 car at a time.
- cjdell 6y ago
  No one's forcing you to buy one. Let them try other manufacturing techniques to see if it goes anywhere. Besides, the quality issues are mostly cosmetic, structurally the cars are very sound. Look at crash test data if you don't believe me.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    When you purchase a $75,000 car, there's a reasonable expectation basic, basic things like body panels will be aligned correctly[1][2][3]. You're not buying a prototype nor experimental vehicle - it's a full fledged production vehicle priced at an extreme premium. Some of Tesla's vehicles are priced to compete with Porsche, high end Mercedes, high end BMW's, Land Rover's, etc. The things all those car manufacturers have in common is quality fit-and-finish on their expensive vehicles. When your brand new vehicle has mis-aligned body panels - it does make you wonder what else is mis-aligned that you can't see... Body panels being mis-aligned isn't some new manufacturing technique Tesla is experimenting with - that's just plain shoddy workmanship and a total lack of quality control. You cannot just hand-wave those issues away, particularly at the price point Tesla has maneuvered into for even their less expensive offerings. [1] https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/pre-delivery-panel-gaps-what-to-do.16673/ https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/pre-delivery-panel-gap... [2] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/body-panel-alignment-and-gap-issues-still-persist.146769/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/body-panel-alignment... [3] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/panel-mis-alignment-and-or-gap-getting-worse.140027/page-3 https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/panel-mis-alignment-...
    - Isinlor 6y ago
      Tesla is addressing these issues with metal casting cars in big pieces. If you watch the interview the issues are supposedly due to accumulation of errors on small parts. Metal casting will eliminate all these errors. They already do that on Model Y. They just don't have enough operational capacity to roll it out across all manufacturing lines according to Elon. If you watch tear down by Sandy you can compare old Model 3 manufacturing and the new Model 3 manufacturing. There is a lot of changes in welding techniques, amount of welds etc. everything gets simplified and more streamlined. With one piece casts as the final goal.
      - Alupis 6y ago
        I'm still not seeing a reason why mis-aligned body panels ever left the factory. New process or not... some person bolted it on incorrectly, then allowed it to go out to the customer. Are we to believe Tesla has zero QC? How do things like this occur? These are all solved problems companies like VW figured out decades and decades ago... Tesla is just insisting on figuring them out on their own all over again.
        carlmr 6y ago
        Yeah, I mean Elon refused to learn from the best. It's not like there are hundreds of books on the Toyota Production System. It's not even a secret. He had to actively ignore it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-thinks-it-will-school-toyota-on-lean-manufacturing-fixing-model-3-launch-would-be-a-start/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-th...
        throwawaysea 6y ago
        The Toyota production system is less about the physical manufacturing techniques and more about the framework for their industrial and corporate process. I imagine it still takes time to fix each error that accumulates into a panel gap ultimately.
- spectrum1234 6y ago
  Except that there most commonly sold car is half that, plus maybe $500. Then if you factor in cost of ownership, which its crazy not too, subtract another $5000 or so.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    Their most commonly sold car is still a very expensive car (around $40,000 after all the dust has settled). You can buy a $20,000 car and still expect body panels to be aligned correctly. These quality issues Tesla is having are the absolute basics for automotive manufacturing. There's no reasonable excuse here...
    - offtop5 6y ago
      Tesla owners tend to be higher income individuals, I.E you have the Kia to get to and from work, and the Tesla when you want to be cool.
    - bgirard 6y ago
      If you, like myself, prefer value and quality issue like body panel alignment then I agree, stay away from Telsa for now. But it's subjective. I have friends that prefer an EVs with tech gadgets. And they're happy with their Telsa. Feels like an efficient market to me. There's lot of car options at different price points and quality standards. Clearly a lot of Tesla's customer are happy with their offering.
      - Alupis 6y ago
        What's the argument here? That Ford, Kia, Toyota, Chevy et al should start mis-aligning body panels on purpose because some people will accept it anyway - or not know any better? Of course not, that would be absurd. Tesla has enjoyed a ravenous fanbase for quite some time - majority of which might be willing to accept shoddy workmanship just so they can claim to own a Tesla - that doesn't make it right nor okay. Like I said earlier... the quality issues coming out of Tesla have no excuses. They are the absolute basics of production automobile manufacturing. The basics. 30 seconds spent in QC would catch mis-aligned body panels... but they allow them to go all the way out to customers, and then pretend they had no idea what's wrong if the customer tries to reject the vehicle. These things are not mutually exclusive - you can simultaneously be in love with your Tesla while also being disappointed at the lack of fit-and-finish and quality control.
- nickik 6y ago
  SpaceX and Tesla reinvented many things and 90% of the time it worked out. Turns out reinventing manufacturing wasn't as easy. But it also has to be said that since Tesla has come up with a lot of new solutions that nobody else is using. Meta Casting being a nice manufacturing example. Its easy to shit on somebody for doing something new, but that very sprit made it possible for Tesla and SpaceX to shake up their industries in the first place. If Tesla had done everything like other car companies, they wouldn't be close to were they are today.
Gravityloss 6y ago
Every model of every car company has lots of unique problems in very mundane areas where development has stagnated decades ago and most models of manufacturers never experience any problems. This is mind boggling - the problem has been solved by the industry, yet it was chosen to be introduced to that model. The same exists with buildings. Door and window placement is messed up all the time, despite being a few millenia old art. It seems fields never really mature, they reach maybe some 90% level and can stay there at best. No problem is ever really solved. If you look away, it might actually get worse.

by cjdell 6y ago

Alupis 6y ago

Tesla famously turned down help from Volkswagen and other major manufacturers. Instead, preferring to reinvent manufacturing, one poorly assembled $75,000 car at a time.

cjdell 6y ago
No one's forcing you to buy one. Let them try other manufacturing techniques to see if it goes anywhere. Besides, the quality issues are mostly cosmetic, structurally the cars are very sound. Look at crash test data if you don't believe me.
- Alupis 6y ago
  When you purchase a $75,000 car, there's a reasonable expectation basic, basic things like body panels will be aligned correctly[1][2][3]. You're not buying a prototype nor experimental vehicle - it's a full fledged production vehicle priced at an extreme premium. Some of Tesla's vehicles are priced to compete with Porsche, high end Mercedes, high end BMW's, Land Rover's, etc. The things all those car manufacturers have in common is quality fit-and-finish on their expensive vehicles. When your brand new vehicle has mis-aligned body panels - it does make you wonder what else is mis-aligned that you can't see... Body panels being mis-aligned isn't some new manufacturing technique Tesla is experimenting with - that's just plain shoddy workmanship and a total lack of quality control. You cannot just hand-wave those issues away, particularly at the price point Tesla has maneuvered into for even their less expensive offerings. [1] https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/pre-delivery-panel-gaps-what-to-do.16673/ https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/pre-delivery-panel-gap... [2] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/body-panel-alignment-and-gap-issues-still-persist.146769/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/body-panel-alignment... [3] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/panel-mis-alignment-and-or-gap-getting-worse.140027/page-3 https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/panel-mis-alignment-...
  - Isinlor 6y ago
    Tesla is addressing these issues with metal casting cars in big pieces. If you watch the interview the issues are supposedly due to accumulation of errors on small parts. Metal casting will eliminate all these errors. They already do that on Model Y. They just don't have enough operational capacity to roll it out across all manufacturing lines according to Elon. If you watch tear down by Sandy you can compare old Model 3 manufacturing and the new Model 3 manufacturing. There is a lot of changes in welding techniques, amount of welds etc. everything gets simplified and more streamlined. With one piece casts as the final goal.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      I'm still not seeing a reason why mis-aligned body panels ever left the factory. New process or not... some person bolted it on incorrectly, then allowed it to go out to the customer. Are we to believe Tesla has zero QC? How do things like this occur? These are all solved problems companies like VW figured out decades and decades ago... Tesla is just insisting on figuring them out on their own all over again.
      - carlmr 6y ago
        Yeah, I mean Elon refused to learn from the best. It's not like there are hundreds of books on the Toyota Production System. It's not even a secret. He had to actively ignore it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-thinks-it-will-school-toyota-on-lean-manufacturing-fixing-model-3-launch-would-be-a-start/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-th...
        throwawaysea 6y ago
        The Toyota production system is less about the physical manufacturing techniques and more about the framework for their industrial and corporate process. I imagine it still takes time to fix each error that accumulates into a panel gap ultimately.
spectrum1234 6y ago
Except that there most commonly sold car is half that, plus maybe $500. Then if you factor in cost of ownership, which its crazy not too, subtract another $5000 or so.
- Alupis 6y ago
  Their most commonly sold car is still a very expensive car (around $40,000 after all the dust has settled). You can buy a $20,000 car and still expect body panels to be aligned correctly. These quality issues Tesla is having are the absolute basics for automotive manufacturing. There's no reasonable excuse here...
  - offtop5 6y ago
    Tesla owners tend to be higher income individuals, I.E you have the Kia to get to and from work, and the Tesla when you want to be cool.
  - bgirard 6y ago
    If you, like myself, prefer value and quality issue like body panel alignment then I agree, stay away from Telsa for now. But it's subjective. I have friends that prefer an EVs with tech gadgets. And they're happy with their Telsa. Feels like an efficient market to me. There's lot of car options at different price points and quality standards. Clearly a lot of Tesla's customer are happy with their offering.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      What's the argument here? That Ford, Kia, Toyota, Chevy et al should start mis-aligning body panels on purpose because some people will accept it anyway - or not know any better? Of course not, that would be absurd. Tesla has enjoyed a ravenous fanbase for quite some time - majority of which might be willing to accept shoddy workmanship just so they can claim to own a Tesla - that doesn't make it right nor okay. Like I said earlier... the quality issues coming out of Tesla have no excuses. They are the absolute basics of production automobile manufacturing. The basics. 30 seconds spent in QC would catch mis-aligned body panels... but they allow them to go all the way out to customers, and then pretend they had no idea what's wrong if the customer tries to reject the vehicle. These things are not mutually exclusive - you can simultaneously be in love with your Tesla while also being disappointed at the lack of fit-and-finish and quality control.
nickik 6y ago
SpaceX and Tesla reinvented many things and 90% of the time it worked out. Turns out reinventing manufacturing wasn't as easy. But it also has to be said that since Tesla has come up with a lot of new solutions that nobody else is using. Meta Casting being a nice manufacturing example. Its easy to shit on somebody for doing something new, but that very sprit made it possible for Tesla and SpaceX to shake up their industries in the first place. If Tesla had done everything like other car companies, they wouldn't be close to were they are today.

Gravityloss 6y ago

Every model of every car company has lots of unique problems in very mundane areas where development has stagnated decades ago and most models of manufacturers never experience any problems. This is mind boggling - the problem has been solved by the industry, yet it was chosen to be introduced to that model. The same exists with buildings. Door and window placement is messed up all the time, despite being a few millenia old art. It seems fields never really mature, they reach maybe some 90% level and can stay there at best. No problem is ever really solved. If you look away, it might actually get worse.