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Isn't the waste also present even without bitcoin, too? Governments make complex laws and regulations in different industries. They do 'magic tricks' to make fi

by ArchD 15y ago

Isn't the waste also present even without bitcoin, too? Governments make complex laws and regulations in different industries. They do 'magic tricks' to make fiat currency appear and disappear. Banks do complex things to make a profit that largely do not correspond to creating real value for society. Competing companies do the same things, duplicating effort, mostly to make a profit. (e.g. Do we really need so many social gaming companies?) Companies also do other things that do not create real value (e.g. lobby politicians to gain political advantage). A large part of human endeavor is not about increasing value in the world, but rather increasing value for oneself, possibly with the side-effect of decreasing value for others. It's just the way we are. I don't think bitcoin's purpose is to aggravate or ameliorate this pervasive problem. To me, the point of bitcoin is to shift economic power from the circles of people who presume to rule the rest of us with complex economic policies and regulation that ostensibly keep the economy stable and growing. With or without bitcoin, the 'waste' from competition still going to be there, and I have no reason to think that the adoption of bitcoin is going to increase the total amount of 'waste'.

duairc 15y ago
> A large part of human endeavor is not about increasing value in the world, but rather increasing value for oneself, possibly with the side-effect of decreasing value for others. It's just the way we are. It's not just the way we are, it's the way we are under capitalism. But I agree that the wastefulness of Bitcoin is nothing compared to the waste caused by capitalism as a whole.
- billybob 15y ago
  "It's not just the way we are, it's the way we are under capitalism." What line of reasoning makes you think that humans are naturally unselfish and are made so only by an external economic system (which is itself created by humans)? Judeo-Christian thought says that humans are naturally sinful and selfish. Evolution says that the fittest survive at the expense of others (though this may involve cooperation with related creatures). Who says we're all basically nice? "But I agree that the wastefulness of Bitcoin is nothing compared to the waste caused by capitalism as a whole." What system would you have instead of capitalism? If socialism or the like, can you give an example of when that has ever worked well? There are many counter-examples in history, you know. Workers sitting down doing nothing because the government quota said to only make 250 pairs of shoes today, etc.
  - BCM43 15y ago
    > What system would you have instead of capitalism? If socialism or the like, can you give an example of when that has ever worked well? At the risk of getting into a political debate, Spain in the 1930's? https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Spanish_Revolution https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Spanish_Revol...
billybob 15y ago
"Competing companies do the same things, duplicating effort, mostly to make a profit. (e.g. Do we really need so many social gaming companies?)" In theory, we don't "need" more than one of anything: one telecom provider, one computer maker, etc. And they could be more efficient if they didn't have to spend money on advertising, etc. But the history of monopoly companies seems to show that without the need to compete, companies do not improve their product or its cost-efficiency. So it appears that the loss of efficiency created by having many companies reinvent the process to make a widget is outweighed by the efficiency gains each company makes in an effort to out-compete others. Hence, better, cheaper widgets for less money. As to the value of social gaming companies, I think it's nearly nil, but apparently millions of other people disagree.

by ArchD 15y ago

duairc 15y ago

> A large part of human endeavor is not about increasing value in the world, but rather increasing value for oneself, possibly with the side-effect of decreasing value for others. It's just the way we are. It's not just the way we are, it's the way we are under capitalism. But I agree that the wastefulness of Bitcoin is nothing compared to the waste caused by capitalism as a whole.

billybob 15y ago
"It's not just the way we are, it's the way we are under capitalism." What line of reasoning makes you think that humans are naturally unselfish and are made so only by an external economic system (which is itself created by humans)? Judeo-Christian thought says that humans are naturally sinful and selfish. Evolution says that the fittest survive at the expense of others (though this may involve cooperation with related creatures). Who says we're all basically nice? "But I agree that the wastefulness of Bitcoin is nothing compared to the waste caused by capitalism as a whole." What system would you have instead of capitalism? If socialism or the like, can you give an example of when that has ever worked well? There are many counter-examples in history, you know. Workers sitting down doing nothing because the government quota said to only make 250 pairs of shoes today, etc.
- BCM43 15y ago
  > What system would you have instead of capitalism? If socialism or the like, can you give an example of when that has ever worked well? At the risk of getting into a political debate, Spain in the 1930's? https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Spanish_Revolution https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Spanish_Revol...

billybob 15y ago

"Competing companies do the same things, duplicating effort, mostly to make a profit. (e.g. Do we really need so many social gaming companies?)" In theory, we don't "need" more than one of anything: one telecom provider, one computer maker, etc. And they could be more efficient if they didn't have to spend money on advertising, etc. But the history of monopoly companies seems to show that without the need to compete, companies do not improve their product or its cost-efficiency. So it appears that the loss of efficiency created by having many companies reinvent the process to make a widget is outweighed by the efficiency gains each company makes in an effort to out-compete others. Hence, better, cheaper widgets for less money. As to the value of social gaming companies, I think it's nearly nil, but apparently millions of other people disagree.