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Warehouse and distribution workers that are paid $15/hr at a minimum, enjoy the same group health insurance benefits as their software engineering and product m

by bhupy 6y ago

Warehouse and distribution workers that are paid $15/hr at a minimum, enjoy the same group health insurance benefits as their software engineering and product management coworkers, and enjoy the same 401k matching as their desk-bound co-workers — benefits that are unavailable to almost any other entry-level job that requires no college education. And while it's definitely difficult that they have to put themselves at serious risk for Covid, that's true for any essential worker too. Ultimately most people agree that this is a worthwhile tradeoff to ensure that people continue to get access to food, supplies, COVID tests (in the case of frontline nurses), etc. I'll re-iterate, there's no obvious correct answer, and it's difficult to agree on the best way to litigate these issues. One thing I can say for sure is that blithe one-line HN comments is the worst possible way to litigate them, much less understand them.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
You're eulogising a system that doesn't deserve eulogies. Workers pass out in warehouses and aren't allowed toilet breaks. And many are gig-economy contract hires who have zero chance of ever seeing a 401k or any other permanent employee benefits.
- bhupy 6y ago
  > You're eulogising a system that doesn't deserve eulogies. Nobody is eulogizing anything. The system isn't dead, it's alive and well. What I, personally, am doing is simply appealing to nuance. > Workers pass out in warehouses and aren't allowed toilet breaks Yes, this is bad. Nobody is arguing that it's all sunshines and daisies for Amazon Warehouse workers. The argument is that the reality is more complicated because they are well compensated relative to their similarly-skilled counterparts elsewhere. And it's not like they're not allowed toilet breaks as a rule, the reality is that Amazon's warehouse policies are decentralized and in one documented situation, there was malpractice. This is undeniably bad and should be fixed, and one would be a fool to argue otherwise. Notwithstanding (objectively bad) isolated incidents like this, in the aggregate, it is arguably a good thing that 1.3 million unskilled people are gainfully employed with competitive benefits, and all in service of providing convenient supply chains to the world especially in times of widespread pandemic and distress. > And many are gig-economy contract hires who have zero chance of ever seeing a 401k or any other permanent employee benefits. At least as it relates to the warehouse workers in the United States, this is factually untrue.
  - teachrdan 6y ago
    Honest question that will sound snarky: What's the point of (relatively) generous pay and benefits if workers burn out / get injured and fired in a short amount of time?
    - bhupy 6y ago
      First of all, I'm not sure it's obvious that burn out / injury is the norm instead of the exception — though happy to shown otherwise if you have any links. We hear about the worst cases because that's what's reported on, but we never hear about the boring average Joe warehouse worker that just clocks in, does their work, clocks out, and then goes about their life. The hours are predictable, and there's no oncall rotation so you can reasonably plan your life around the difficult working hours, and you never have to worry about not affording health care because Amazon health insurance is quite generous.
93po 6y ago
Saying warehouse workers enjoy the same benefit from 401K matching as a software engineer making $300k a year is like saying the warehouse workers also get to enjoy the same discounts at the local Rolex dealer. They simply can't take advantage of it the same way as someone making 6x their salary.
- bhupy 6y ago
  Sure, I was just listing one of the many benefits they enjoy. You can view the exhaustive list here -> https://www.aboutamazon.com/workplace/employee-benefits https://www.aboutamazon.com/workplace/employee-benefits. It includes paid leave for up to 20 weeks, with up to 6 weeks transferrable to spouses, which I hope you agree would be useful to warehouse workers. That a warehouse worker might benefit less from 401K matching doesn't refute the central argument: Amazon provides high pay and generous benefits atypical of entry level unskilled work that doesn't require a college degree. Not only that, they offer this to 1.3 million people. As a fun exercise, I recommend just trying to do the back-of-the-napkim math and try to work out the total cost to providing $15/hr (at a minimum), generous group health insurance (usually working out to about $1000/month in premiums), 401(k) matching, paid parental leave, and then multiplying that by 1 million (my rounding error there is more people than employed at most large tech companies).
  - 93po 6y ago
    Some things missing from the official PR: * This is specifically parental leave, not just general purpose leave. And it's only 6 weeks for adoptive parents. * There are reports of people losing healthcare coverage while on leave - right after having a baby? Really? * Reports of people being put on PIP after their leave was over, which as we all know is a threat that you might lose your job * Reports that people are not pushed to use their leave and there is sometimes pressure to not use it (risk of PIP, “Boy, will you be sorry if you use it.”) * Parental leave doesn't extend to hundreds of thousands of temporary, contract, and part time workers https://www.fastcompany.com/3053093/whats-missing-from-amazons-new-parental-leave-policy https://www.fastcompany.com/3053093/whats-missing-from-amazo... I would also say it's not a great argument to say how much Amazon spends in aggregate going "above and beyond" on its employees. I doubt it really affects their bottom line in any material way. $15/hour is also looking to soon become the minimum wage. I guess a pat on the back they did it before they were legally forced to. $32k a year is not what I'd call "high paying" though, even for unskilled entry level pay. Many waiters and bar tenders in big cities get paid a lot more than that.

by bhupy 6y ago

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago

You're eulogising a system that doesn't deserve eulogies. Workers pass out in warehouses and aren't allowed toilet breaks. And many are gig-economy contract hires who have zero chance of ever seeing a 401k or any other permanent employee benefits.

bhupy 6y ago
> You're eulogising a system that doesn't deserve eulogies. Nobody is eulogizing anything. The system isn't dead, it's alive and well. What I, personally, am doing is simply appealing to nuance. > Workers pass out in warehouses and aren't allowed toilet breaks Yes, this is bad. Nobody is arguing that it's all sunshines and daisies for Amazon Warehouse workers. The argument is that the reality is more complicated because they are well compensated relative to their similarly-skilled counterparts elsewhere. And it's not like they're not allowed toilet breaks as a rule, the reality is that Amazon's warehouse policies are decentralized and in one documented situation, there was malpractice. This is undeniably bad and should be fixed, and one would be a fool to argue otherwise. Notwithstanding (objectively bad) isolated incidents like this, in the aggregate, it is arguably a good thing that 1.3 million unskilled people are gainfully employed with competitive benefits, and all in service of providing convenient supply chains to the world especially in times of widespread pandemic and distress. > And many are gig-economy contract hires who have zero chance of ever seeing a 401k or any other permanent employee benefits. At least as it relates to the warehouse workers in the United States, this is factually untrue.
- teachrdan 6y ago
  Honest question that will sound snarky: What's the point of (relatively) generous pay and benefits if workers burn out / get injured and fired in a short amount of time?
  - bhupy 6y ago
    First of all, I'm not sure it's obvious that burn out / injury is the norm instead of the exception — though happy to shown otherwise if you have any links. We hear about the worst cases because that's what's reported on, but we never hear about the boring average Joe warehouse worker that just clocks in, does their work, clocks out, and then goes about their life. The hours are predictable, and there's no oncall rotation so you can reasonably plan your life around the difficult working hours, and you never have to worry about not affording health care because Amazon health insurance is quite generous.

93po 6y ago

Saying warehouse workers enjoy the same benefit from 401K matching as a software engineer making $300k a year is like saying the warehouse workers also get to enjoy the same discounts at the local Rolex dealer. They simply can't take advantage of it the same way as someone making 6x their salary.

bhupy 6y ago
Sure, I was just listing one of the many benefits they enjoy. You can view the exhaustive list here -> https://www.aboutamazon.com/workplace/employee-benefits https://www.aboutamazon.com/workplace/employee-benefits. It includes paid leave for up to 20 weeks, with up to 6 weeks transferrable to spouses, which I hope you agree would be useful to warehouse workers. That a warehouse worker might benefit less from 401K matching doesn't refute the central argument: Amazon provides high pay and generous benefits atypical of entry level unskilled work that doesn't require a college degree. Not only that, they offer this to 1.3 million people. As a fun exercise, I recommend just trying to do the back-of-the-napkim math and try to work out the total cost to providing $15/hr (at a minimum), generous group health insurance (usually working out to about $1000/month in premiums), 401(k) matching, paid parental leave, and then multiplying that by 1 million (my rounding error there is more people than employed at most large tech companies).
- 93po 6y ago
  Some things missing from the official PR: * This is specifically parental leave, not just general purpose leave. And it's only 6 weeks for adoptive parents. * There are reports of people losing healthcare coverage while on leave - right after having a baby? Really? * Reports of people being put on PIP after their leave was over, which as we all know is a threat that you might lose your job * Reports that people are not pushed to use their leave and there is sometimes pressure to not use it (risk of PIP, “Boy, will you be sorry if you use it.”) * Parental leave doesn't extend to hundreds of thousands of temporary, contract, and part time workers https://www.fastcompany.com/3053093/whats-missing-from-amazons-new-parental-leave-policy https://www.fastcompany.com/3053093/whats-missing-from-amazo... I would also say it's not a great argument to say how much Amazon spends in aggregate going "above and beyond" on its employees. I doubt it really affects their bottom line in any material way. $15/hour is also looking to soon become the minimum wage. I guess a pat on the back they did it before they were legally forced to. $32k a year is not what I'd call "high paying" though, even for unskilled entry level pay. Many waiters and bar tenders in big cities get paid a lot more than that.