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The reverse brain drain
- naughtysriram 15y agoits a "brain re-fill" you dumbo, not "reverse brain drain"
- wmboy 15y agoIndia is definitely a country to watch. With China's one-child-per-family rule, it could very well be India that becomes the new super power in the next 20-50 years...
- microarchitect 15y agoI'd like this to be true, but I can't help thinking that much of this is just wishful thinking. India has terrible infrastructure, which as far as I can make out is only getting worse. All-pervasive corruption is a big problem as well, as is the fact that _all_ (at least something like 85% or more) politicians are criminals. The (completely unscientific) impression I get is that things got better between 1995-2005 and are now getting worse. Maybe these expats are just seeing the delta between 199x and 20xx.
- known 15y agoIndia is importing 75% of its crude oil. 50% in USA & China. http://mazamascience.com/OilExport/ http://mazamascience.com/OilExport/
- nazgulnarsil 15y agothings are still getting better. the presence of bad things doesn't mean you can ignore a huge upswing in living standards all over a country of a billion+ people.
- w1ntermute 15y ago> the presence of bad things doesn't mean you can ignore a huge upswing in living standards all over a country of a billion+ people. You can say that about China, but not about India. Things have not improved much for the average Indian. In fact, in many places it's gotten worse.
- nazgulnarsil 15y ago<citation needed> Every presentation I have seen on India cites dramatic improvement from 2000-2010.
- radicaldreamer 15y agoCan we get some objective data or examples for these claims?
- known 15y agoFormer USSR republics are doing better than India http://doingbusiness.org/rankings http://doingbusiness.org/rankings Georgia - 12, Estonia - 17, Lithuania - 23 Latvia - 24, Kyrgyzstan - 44, Armenia - 48, Azerbaijan - 54, Kazakhstan - 59, Belarus - 68, Moldova - 90, Russia - 123, . INDIA - 134 CARS PER 1000 PEOPLE Moldova - 49, Azerbaijan - 51, Belarus - 87, Ukraine - 140, Kazakhstan - 170, Russia - 213, Latvia - 372, Estonia - 410, Lithuania - 453 . INDIA - 12 GLOBAL PEACE INDEX Lithuania - 42, Estonia - 46, Latvia - 54, Moldova - 66, Kazakhstan - 95, Ukraine - 97, Belarus - 105, Uzbekistan - 110, Armenia - 113, Turkmenistan - 117, Azerbaijan - 119, . INDIA - 128
- dimmuborgir 15y agoWe're talking about whether India has made progress from its own past. Why are you bringing former Soviet states for comparison?
- known 15y agoWhy shouldn't I compare India (born in 1947) with Soviet states (born in 1991)? Do HDI or Wikipedia or I need your permission?
- garyrichardson 15y agoI suspect 85% of all the worlds politicians are criminals. The sort of people who are willing to do anything to get ahead excel at politics.
- bruce511 15y agoNo, that's inaccurate. Bear in mind there's a difference between criminal behaviour, and, well, morally corrupt behaviour. There are also broadly speaking two kinds of politicians. Those in countries where the quickest way to riches are to be part of the government, and those where it's easier to make really big money outside the government. In the former people are attracted to politics strictly for the money, whereas in the latter there are other desires (like fame, power and so on). The ones in it for the money are more likely to see government money as their own money and accumulate as much of that as possible. The real problem with corruption though is not politicians. It's the civil service. While polititians set policy, and create laws, it is the civil service that we interact with every day. Corrupt cops, customs & border officials, judges, and so on have a far more devastating effect on every-day life than some minister or senator that buries a million here or a million there. I'm not arguing for corrupt politicians - of course that's bad - they set the tone, and ultimately have the power to condone or condemn bribes and other considerations in the civil service. And of course politicians steal more in absolute terms, to the point where infrastructure is compromised - but the real "daily" damage is done when each transaction comes with an "informal tax". Now if you want to talk moral behavior - then I agree there is definitely room for improvement. The whole concept of campaign funding means that elected officials are bought and paid for by those with the cash to spend.
- ChuckMcM 15y agoI think you unscientific impression is leading you astray. India has its share of problems, and it has its share of corrupt politicians. But it also has a pretty robust democracy and part of what returnees are bringing home is an appreciation for governments that work vs ones that don't. And when the people don't tolerate an ineffective government they change it. The other thing India is, is big. There is a lot of country there. While it's true you can find abject poverty and people manually crushing rocks with bigger rocks to make a handful of gravel to sell, you can also find vibrant urban centers with shopping centers and affluence that would make you think you were back in Europe or the US. Its an interesting transition, and if they pull it off they will become a threat to China. But their economic development also puts a damper on some of the saber rattling too. My own take on it is that nothing but good can come of India developing its economy into a completely vertically integrated one.
- jbarham 15y ago> And when the people don't tolerate an ineffective government they change it. Easier said than done, or there wouldn't be so many long-standing ineffective governments around... It is often easier for people to change the country they live in (i.e., emigrate) than to reform the government they live under.
- hessenwolf 15y agoDo you mean a threat to China's status as leading economic power, or a threat to China? Improvements in productivity help all of us, because we make more stuff to share around; it is not a zero sum game.
- yardie 15y agoAren't they they same. We are all on one big rock and access to petroleum, water, and food will become more limited and more contested as both economies grow. Economically and realistically, India is a threat to China, Europe and the US.
- ChuckMcM 15y agoI believe if they are successful they will be a threat to China's economic growth and their border disputes may spill out into more explicit hostilities. From an economic standpoint they may be able to put together cost competitive manufacturing facilities with a better quality of life for their workers. That, coupled with the increasingly forceful way in which China struggles to maintain its margins are threatening the delicate balance in China between the benefit of hard currency and the challenge of an upwardly mobile workforce. (or not which would turn out to be the problem) As more companies are put under pressure to avoid doing business with companies like FoxConn and the ability to keep information about working conditions in China out of the press is reduced. It makes for a challenging environment for the Chinese. To have a neighbor state pick up the slack with workers who, if they are successful can move on to big houses and a more affluent lifestyle, and are thus both happier and more productive in their jobs. That is the threat economically. If India were to provide a ready market for Afghanistan's raw mineral wealth, that too could be problematic for the Chinese.
- dimmuborgir 15y agoAre you saying that Chinese authorities are not corrupt? Did the state controlled media of China make you believe so? Take a look at Corruption Index published by Transparency International: http://transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results http://transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/... Both China and India are the same. In fact, with free-media, India has a greater chance of tackling corruption in the future than China.
- wisty 15y agoThis index is about transparency, corruption, and accountability. India is transparent, but corrupt. China lacks transparency, but bribery is rare. In India, you have to pay small (or large) bribes to get anything done. You are faced with a bureaucracy which wants to trip you up with red tape, to force you to pay more bribes. This is not conductive to small business. China really falls apart when it comes to bigger businesses. State owned enterprises get preferential treatment for all kinds of things, especially funding. And bigger businesses have to follow regulations more carefully.
- dimmuborgir 15y agoAny source that China is more conducive to small businesses than India?
- known 15y agohttp://doingbusiness.org/rankings http://doingbusiness.org/rankings China - 79 India - 134
- dimmuborgir 15y agoI was asking with respect to bribery. The list you quoted takes a lot of other things like infrastructure, funding etc into consideration.
- shrikant 15y agoCompletely on board with the first paragraph. But your unscientific impression may be a little coloured by your age. (I'd wager you're late 20s, early 30s?) I feel the same quite a few times - that things were getting rapidly better between 1995-2005, after which the pace of change became glacial to the point of regressing. After putting a little more thought into it, I am almost certain that the way I feel this way is because I have a different view of the world now. I am older, more mature and more prosperous than I was in the early oughties, and subconsciously have a better standard of indicators that I look for, when considering 'how things have changed'. Consequently, things like the systemic corruption and poor infrastructure seem far more important to me now, than they did 10 years back. I suppose I was far less concerned about them, and looking more at access to information (the evolution of the Internet) and 'material pleasures' (malls, entertainment, global brands, etc.) Basically, if I look at the situation in India today through the same lens that I did 10 years back, then I'd be prepared to say that things are still improving.
- ay0 15y agoA lot of my family is considering moving back. Things are getting better, but infrastructure still largely sucks (but improving).
- known 15y agoUnlike China, India is a multicultural society. India might disintegrate like USSR in next 20-50 years http://www.lewrockwell.com/sowell/sowell24.1.html http://www.lewrockwell.com/sowell/sowell24.1.html
- dimmuborgir 15y agoAre you trolling or something? The article mentions neither USSR nor India. And FYI, the disintegration of USSR was due to economic crisis because of Socialism. India abandoned Socialism soon after the collapse of Soviet Russia and embraced American capitalism and the Indian economy is booming now.
- known 15y agoFYI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility != http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility
- baltcode 15y agoI think our biggest challenge is the people who are completely marginalised, like the forest people driven in to a communist rebellion. As far as multiculturalism goes, I still have hope that some semblence of the feeling of letting others be still survives in India.
- known 15y agoOn 4th August 1932 Round Table Conference, Prime Minister Ramsay MacDonald gave Autonomy/Homeland to Muslims/Christians/Anglo-Indians/Sikhs/SC/ST communities. Gandhi foiled it to favor forward caste community in India. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_Award http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_Award
- shii 15y agoThis is nothing unique to India btw. Check out all over east Africa for example of people who've done well in first world countries or just moderately well but have drive and ambition to start something back home. Common tale to hear about the merchant living lower middle class in USA but something of a legend and well off in north Kenyan cities trading and selling different wares, providing money transfer services, or mobile banking. Many gradually move their entire families over to Africa, even though the kids have lived their whole lives as Anericans. Interesting cultural and generational frictions flare up often.
- hessenwolf 15y agoOr Ireland. Note to Indians: Invest your new prosperity; don't spend it.
- uast23 15y agohttp://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/07/world/asia/07iht-letter07.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/07/world/asia/07iht-letter07.... This article is an apt read here; but in a little different context. The article talks about Indians fighting against real India which is undeniable, but the flip side is that this is the same fight which is enabling people in India to work the way they want. Sans the economic liberation, if development was left in the hand of Govt. (a job well done in China), we would not be seeing this spur. If that little percentage of Indians were not fighting against the real India to create their own work, India would not be where it is today. I am not trying to claim any top spot and I know that almost nothing has been done till now, but the improvements cannot be ignored. Talk about the IT companies; irrespective of the quality of work they do, they have definitely achieved something (USD6-10 billion in revenue) which looked impossible few years back, and when you see them operating you will find that they have hardly anything to do with the Govt. support, they manage their infra from tip to toe and sometimes they contribute to the surrounding infra too.
- known 15y agoIndia is developing since you can exploit Indians via caste system. http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/may/03touch.htm http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/may/03touch.htm China is developing since you can exploit Chinese by abusing human rights. http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-tech-apple-workers-forced-to-sign-no-suicide-pledge/20110504.htm http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-tech-... Americans are suffering since US regime is letting Chindia exploit their people via outsourcing.
- baltcode 15y agoSo seeing your children die of malnutrition is better than having an underpaid job so your kids can get half a meal? If people have loaf of bread they might actually be able to change their circumstances. How would banning outsourcing help lower caste Indians or ethnic minorities in China? I am not trolling, because if it will, I'd like to know how.
- known 15y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero%E2%80%93sum_game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero%E2%80%93sum_game
- baltcode 15y agoI still don't see how that would help the poor people. Unless all you're talking about how it is diminishing income from someone who is already overpaid, which may be a good thing.
- known 15y agoOver 7000 Indians die of hunger every day. http://www.bhookh.com/hunger_facts.php http://www.bhookh.com/hunger_facts.php
- tomjen3 15y agoHow is that relevant to the topic at hand?
- braindead_in 15y agoI would be nice to survey these returnees for their satisfaction levels after 10 years or so. Theoretically speaking, given India's growth rate, you'd assume that people will grow rich faster than if they had stayed back in US. It would be interesting to see how many actually did.
- rushabh 15y agoCan't understand how satisfaction is linked to being rich? Satisfaction also comes from what impact you have on society.
- braindead_in 15y agoBy satisfaction I meant, were they satisfied with the decision to relocate back. One of the factors would be the opportunity cost; the money they would have made staying back vs actual money they have made.
- william42 15y agoThat depends on if growth rate is more because of people of their stature getting richer or the very poor becoming less poor.
- keen 15y agoThe headline posted here is way more ambiguous than the BBC article's headline. Am I right in thinking this is against HN etiquette?
- neuroelectronic 15y agoThe American Dream had too many barriers to entry.