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It seems to me the democracy experiment in India can collapse some time in the near future. I have no stake in that race being a total outsider to the problems

by _hao 6y ago

It seems to me the democracy experiment in India can collapse some time in the near future. I have no stake in that race being a total outsider to the problems in that huge and diverse country, but from materials and books I've read things don't look very positive.

factorialboy 6y ago
If it survived the early 90's, this is nothing.
Abhinav2000 6y ago
Unfortunately, while dictatorships are highly successful in the short run, democracies are required in the long run. My partner comes from a country with a dictatorship so I see first hand how bad it is to live in an environment where the de facto ruler has full say on everything. You can and will be killed as per their request. Democracies are bad and the US, India, Europe are all struggling with them, but there are essential for basic rights. Without politicising this thread, one can look at some of the other countries and see how bad life would be in a dictatorship. Currently dictatorship's are not THAT bad, but that's because they are still competing with democracies. Imagine the whole world under one ruler - they would likely kill large parts of the population. Just as one good ruler can do many good things fast, one bad ruler can do many bad things fast.
- _hao 6y ago
  I'm from an Eastern European country so I don't need telling on the good/bad sides of dictatorships. The problems with enforcing democracies in places where the populace is not ready for it are apparent worldwide. That's not a jab against democracy per se, but you need the right environment for it. India is not really in that category since they've been a democracy for a while, but still not long enough to be ingrained in their psyche. They have ethnical and other social issues that few other countries have (at least when it comes to scale).
fakedang 6y ago
This is nothing compared to the Emergency in the 80s. It's not good, but it isn't the worst India has seen.
- ignoramous 6y ago
  > ...it isn't the worst India has seen. Wouldn't be surprised if you are part of the 80%.
  - fakedang 6y ago
    The 80% what? Hindu majority? I'm actually a minority, but I have the foresight to distinguish between a country that is declining into a dictatorship vs a country that already is. Democracy was non existent in India during the Emergency.
amachefe 6y ago
This can be said for every democracy. Democracy is always chaotic in the short run and organized in the long run. While authoritarianism is organized in the short run, but collapse in the long run as no one person lives forever.
- silicon2401 6y ago
  What real historical governments are you basing this on, when many of the longest-lived governments are empires and kingdoms, ie authoritarian? https://www.eupedia.com/history/longest_lived_empires_in_history.shtml https://www.eupedia.com/history/longest_lived_empires_in_his...
perryizgr8 6y ago
Don't believe everything you read in the media. We had elections in 2019, possibly the freest and definitely the largest elections on the planet. No large scale violence, vote rigging, during the election, no violence after it. The Election Commission is very well-funded, has an army of volunteers and they make sure that citizens even in the remotest of areas get to cast their vote. There are 1000s of problems in India, but democracy is not one.
- kranner 6y ago
  > No large scale violence, vote rigging There were widespread allegations that the EVM machines were rigged. https://thewire.in/politics/elections-2019-money-evm-media https://thewire.in/politics/elections-2019-money-evm-media
  - perryizgr8 6y ago
    Allegations are always there, but I didn't see anything credible. As I said, don't believe everything you read in the media.
    - kranner 6y ago
      Yes, of course not. That's why I didn't believe the Government-sponsored media that claimed there was no rigging at all. One of these pro-Government channels has claimed that Rihanna (the American singer) is a farmer leader and member of the Congress Party (because Rihanna tweeted in favour of the protesting farmers). https://twitter.com/bhupenderc19/status/1356910861848305664?s=20 https://twitter.com/bhupenderc19/status/1356910861848305664?...
      - shripadk 6y ago
        > One of these pro-Government channels has claimed that Rihanna (the American singer) is a farmer leader and member of the Congress Party (because Rihanna tweeted in favour of the protesting farmers). You do realize that this is sarcasm right? I can give you umpteen instances of sarcasm being used in Indian media as a way to ridicule celebrities who just support a cause without knowing anything about it. I still remember how Deepika Padukone was roped in for Anti-CAA protests by giving her a measly 5 crores to just show up at JNU and do her drama. Are you telling us that Rihanna knows more about Farmer Protests and Farm Laws in India than Indians themselves? It is high time we call out the hypocrisy of the West. Biden Administration is literally moving 30 billion dollars COVID aid reserved for US farmers to fighting climate change[1]. If Rihanna cares so much about the plight of farmers she should focus inwards in her own country. What is even more laughable is that Rihanna supports those Farmers, most of whom come from stubble burning regions of Punjab and Haryana (the ones who directly contribute to massive air pollution in Delhi) [2]. [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-biden-usda-vilsack/usda-can-steer-farm-aid-money-to-fight-climate-change-biden-ag-secretary-nominee-says-idUSKBN2A22O8 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-biden-usda-vilsack/us... [2]: https://scroll.in/latest/977424/stubble-burning-caused-40-of-delhis-air-pollution-on-sunday-highest-this-season https://scroll.in/latest/977424/stubble-burning-caused-40-of...
webmobdev 6y ago
> It seems to me the democracy experiment in India can collapse some time in the near future. As an indian, I am still optimistic. As these farm protests shows, our democracy still has life despite a government that has scant regard for it. Despite the hiccups in the past (dismissing of an elected communist government in a state and a short emergency that suspended elections and most democratic rights), democracy has thrived till the last 6 years. What this government has done is exposed all the huge shortcomings in our democratic institutions that has allowed it to control and dominate it, thus weakening our democracy. As long as we don't allow the current party in power to totally subjugate our democracy (like Hitler did with Germany), we can still repair our democracy. (As the right-wing in power in US and India showed, democracy in the US is more resilient than India's because the democratic institutions of the US were stronger. This is where India needs to focus. Also note that one of the propaganda of the party in power is to show that democracy is totally dysfunctional in India, because that is the only way they can find support to change the constitution to "fix" it.)

by _hao 6y ago

factorialboy 6y ago

If it survived the early 90's, this is nothing.

Abhinav2000 6y ago

Unfortunately, while dictatorships are highly successful in the short run, democracies are required in the long run. My partner comes from a country with a dictatorship so I see first hand how bad it is to live in an environment where the de facto ruler has full say on everything. You can and will be killed as per their request. Democracies are bad and the US, India, Europe are all struggling with them, but there are essential for basic rights. Without politicising this thread, one can look at some of the other countries and see how bad life would be in a dictatorship. Currently dictatorship's are not THAT bad, but that's because they are still competing with democracies. Imagine the whole world under one ruler - they would likely kill large parts of the population. Just as one good ruler can do many good things fast, one bad ruler can do many bad things fast.

_hao 6y ago
I'm from an Eastern European country so I don't need telling on the good/bad sides of dictatorships. The problems with enforcing democracies in places where the populace is not ready for it are apparent worldwide. That's not a jab against democracy per se, but you need the right environment for it. India is not really in that category since they've been a democracy for a while, but still not long enough to be ingrained in their psyche. They have ethnical and other social issues that few other countries have (at least when it comes to scale).

fakedang 6y ago

This is nothing compared to the Emergency in the 80s. It's not good, but it isn't the worst India has seen.

ignoramous 6y ago
> ...it isn't the worst India has seen. Wouldn't be surprised if you are part of the 80%.
- fakedang 6y ago
  The 80% what? Hindu majority? I'm actually a minority, but I have the foresight to distinguish between a country that is declining into a dictatorship vs a country that already is. Democracy was non existent in India during the Emergency.

amachefe 6y ago

This can be said for every democracy. Democracy is always chaotic in the short run and organized in the long run. While authoritarianism is organized in the short run, but collapse in the long run as no one person lives forever.

silicon2401 6y ago
What real historical governments are you basing this on, when many of the longest-lived governments are empires and kingdoms, ie authoritarian? https://www.eupedia.com/history/longest_lived_empires_in_history.shtml https://www.eupedia.com/history/longest_lived_empires_in_his...

perryizgr8 6y ago

Don't believe everything you read in the media. We had elections in 2019, possibly the freest and definitely the largest elections on the planet. No large scale violence, vote rigging, during the election, no violence after it. The Election Commission is very well-funded, has an army of volunteers and they make sure that citizens even in the remotest of areas get to cast their vote. There are 1000s of problems in India, but democracy is not one.

kranner 6y ago
> No large scale violence, vote rigging There were widespread allegations that the EVM machines were rigged. https://thewire.in/politics/elections-2019-money-evm-media https://thewire.in/politics/elections-2019-money-evm-media
- perryizgr8 6y ago
  Allegations are always there, but I didn't see anything credible. As I said, don't believe everything you read in the media.
  - kranner 6y ago
    Yes, of course not. That's why I didn't believe the Government-sponsored media that claimed there was no rigging at all. One of these pro-Government channels has claimed that Rihanna (the American singer) is a farmer leader and member of the Congress Party (because Rihanna tweeted in favour of the protesting farmers). https://twitter.com/bhupenderc19/status/1356910861848305664?s=20 https://twitter.com/bhupenderc19/status/1356910861848305664?...
    - shripadk 6y ago
      > One of these pro-Government channels has claimed that Rihanna (the American singer) is a farmer leader and member of the Congress Party (because Rihanna tweeted in favour of the protesting farmers). You do realize that this is sarcasm right? I can give you umpteen instances of sarcasm being used in Indian media as a way to ridicule celebrities who just support a cause without knowing anything about it. I still remember how Deepika Padukone was roped in for Anti-CAA protests by giving her a measly 5 crores to just show up at JNU and do her drama. Are you telling us that Rihanna knows more about Farmer Protests and Farm Laws in India than Indians themselves? It is high time we call out the hypocrisy of the West. Biden Administration is literally moving 30 billion dollars COVID aid reserved for US farmers to fighting climate change[1]. If Rihanna cares so much about the plight of farmers she should focus inwards in her own country. What is even more laughable is that Rihanna supports those Farmers, most of whom come from stubble burning regions of Punjab and Haryana (the ones who directly contribute to massive air pollution in Delhi) [2]. [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-biden-usda-vilsack/usda-can-steer-farm-aid-money-to-fight-climate-change-biden-ag-secretary-nominee-says-idUSKBN2A22O8 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-biden-usda-vilsack/us... [2]: https://scroll.in/latest/977424/stubble-burning-caused-40-of-delhis-air-pollution-on-sunday-highest-this-season https://scroll.in/latest/977424/stubble-burning-caused-40-of...

webmobdev 6y ago

> It seems to me the democracy experiment in India can collapse some time in the near future. As an indian, I am still optimistic. As these farm protests shows, our democracy still has life despite a government that has scant regard for it. Despite the hiccups in the past (dismissing of an elected communist government in a state and a short emergency that suspended elections and most democratic rights), democracy has thrived till the last 6 years. What this government has done is exposed all the huge shortcomings in our democratic institutions that has allowed it to control and dominate it, thus weakening our democracy. As long as we don't allow the current party in power to totally subjugate our democracy (like Hitler did with Germany), we can still repair our democracy. (As the right-wing in power in US and India showed, democracy in the US is more resilient than India's because the democratic institutions of the US were stronger. This is where India needs to focus. Also note that one of the propaganda of the party in power is to show that democracy is totally dysfunctional in India, because that is the only way they can find support to change the constitution to "fix" it.)