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What is even wrong with the world you are describing? I would much rather live in a world of more flat compensation, where I don’t have to worry about negotiati

What is even wrong with the world you are describing? I would much rather live in a world of more flat compensation, where I don’t have to worry about negotiating a salary, where there are more rigid worker protections, etc. I don’t see myself as better or more deserving than my coworkers, I see us all as on the same team, with the same basic interests.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> I would much rather live in a world of more flat compensation, where I don’t have to worry about negotiating a salary, where there are more rigid worker protections, etc. Thats fine and all but I don’t share your preference and so I’d appreciate it if you’d understand that I’m free to negotiate and don’t attempt to take that from me. > I don’t see myself as better or more deserving than my coworkers, I do think its better to earn your own wage rather than an average of all wages. After all I contribute my own productivity, I don’t contribute some average negotiated productivity. > I see us all as on the same team, with the same basic interests. Do you share a bank account with them? Why not?
- d1sxeyes 6y ago
  > I’d appreciate it if you’d understand that I’m free to negotiate and don’t attempt to take that from me No-one is trying to do that (at least, not at this stage, and any attempt to do so would be subject to at least a second vote). You are welcome to simply not join the union if you feel it doesn't represent your interests. > I do think its better to earn your own wage rather than an average of all wages. After all I contribute my own productivity, I don’t contribute some average negotiated productivity. Leaving aside the fact that is perfectly possible for a union to negotiate performance-based pay and/or bonuses, I would be interested to think what you think a fair productivity:pay ratio would be for a worker in an Amazon fulfillment centre. Currently, I understand employees are held to such high productivity targets as a matter of course that many of them are afraid to take bathroom breaks in case their productivity dips and they end up getting fired. This seems to be a valid fear - I couldn't find anything for Alabama, but in Baltimore, Amazon fire around 10% of their workforce annually for failing to meet performance targets. I wasn't able to find any documentation of bonuses or higher pay for higher performance, only the 15.30 USD starting wage, but if anyone has evidence that compensation is higher for high performers, I'd be happy to see that. > Do you share a bank account with them? Why not? This question doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why are you asking this?
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    > Leaving aside the fact that is perfectly possible for a union to negotiate performance-based pay and/or bonuses, I would be interested to think what you think a fair productivity:pay ratio would be for a worker in an Amazon fulfillment centre. Currently, I understand employees are held to such high productivity targets as a matter of course that many of them are afraid to take bathroom breaks in case their productivity dips and they end up getting fired. You know I heard those stories before I went to amazon, and while I wasn’t happy with the work conditions, it certainly wasn’t like that. So I’m not saying the stories are false. But I’m not convinced they are representative either, they certainly weren’t representative of my experience. I’ll answer your question with a question, how do you measure productivity? What percentage of productivity is contributed by labor, and what percentage by capital? We’re going to need this number if we are to answer your question anyway. > This seems to be a valid fear - I couldn't find anything for Alabama, but in Baltimore, Amazon fire around 10% of their workforce annually for failing to meet performance targets. That seems reasonable. I think Jack Welch had a similar policy. > This question doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why are you asking this? Gp said he/she were on the same team and have the same interests. If one has the same interests why does one have separate bank accounts?
    - d1sxeyes 6y ago
      > I’ll answer your question with a question, how do you measure productivity? What percentage of productivity is contributed by labor, and what percentage by capital? We’re going to need this number if we are to answer your question anyway. I personally don't really object to being paid the same as everyone who shares my job title and does substantially the same job as me, provided we're all making the same (and proportionate to hours worked). This was based on your statement that 'I do think its better to earn your own wage rather than an average of all wages. After all I contribute my own productivity, I don’t contribute some average negotiated productivity.' > That seems reasonable. I think Jack Welch had a similar policy. For a lot of people, that doesn't seem reasonable at all, but ultimately, you are entitled to your opinion. If you have first-hand experience working in a fulfillment centre and your opinion is that these stories aren't representative, then I will bow to your experience. > You said you’re on the same team and have the same interests. If you have the same interests why do you have separate bank accounts? Can we skip past the point where you try to get me to say something and move to the counterpoint you're trying to set up? The original statement was not me, actually, but in case it's one of the below, then I'm not arguing, but feel free to add what you need to make your point: - if one person 'earns more' then they should have the right to 'spend more' - if you want to spend your money differently to someone else then you don't have the same interests - how I spend my money shouldn't be dictated by other people (with provisos around tax, etc.) From my perspective though, the main point that I wanted to raise with you was the first one, that no-one is being forced to join, and no-one is losing any right to negotiate individually, so why shouldn't the people who want to unionise be allowed to do so?
- door100 6y ago
  You and your work are not an island. My productivity is not just my own, I am aided by mentors, supported by smart teammates, etc. I find your hyper individualist mindset very depressing and isolating. I think it would be foolish to claim that any success or talent of mine or my team is solely my own. I believe in social obligations, not just in the context of work, but in general. My goal is not to maximize my personal salary, but to live in a world that is more humane and more just and treats everyone, including myself, with dignity and respect. > Do you share a bank account with them? Why not? No, because I don’t have a pension, but many people do and I am fully in support of the concept.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    > I find your hyper individualist mindset very depressing and isolating. I’m not a hyper individualist, a lot of this seems to be interpretation you’re bringing. > I think it would be foolish to claim that any success or talent of mine or my team is solely my own. There’s definitely a way to consider a person’s individual productivity in the context of a team of people they work with. Its not easy to measure or quantify and its definitely got subjective elements but some people are more productive than others and in a team that shares work, someone has to do the work that other people don’t do or it doesn’t get done. > I believe in social obligations, not just in the context of work, but in general. I believe in the power of incentives to shape behavior and I think there is a soft social obligation to align incentives so that they encourage desired behavior.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago

> I would much rather live in a world of more flat compensation, where I don’t have to worry about negotiating a salary, where there are more rigid worker protections, etc. Thats fine and all but I don’t share your preference and so I’d appreciate it if you’d understand that I’m free to negotiate and don’t attempt to take that from me. > I don’t see myself as better or more deserving than my coworkers, I do think its better to earn your own wage rather than an average of all wages. After all I contribute my own productivity, I don’t contribute some average negotiated productivity. > I see us all as on the same team, with the same basic interests. Do you share a bank account with them? Why not?

d1sxeyes 6y ago
> I’d appreciate it if you’d understand that I’m free to negotiate and don’t attempt to take that from me No-one is trying to do that (at least, not at this stage, and any attempt to do so would be subject to at least a second vote). You are welcome to simply not join the union if you feel it doesn't represent your interests. > I do think its better to earn your own wage rather than an average of all wages. After all I contribute my own productivity, I don’t contribute some average negotiated productivity. Leaving aside the fact that is perfectly possible for a union to negotiate performance-based pay and/or bonuses, I would be interested to think what you think a fair productivity:pay ratio would be for a worker in an Amazon fulfillment centre. Currently, I understand employees are held to such high productivity targets as a matter of course that many of them are afraid to take bathroom breaks in case their productivity dips and they end up getting fired. This seems to be a valid fear - I couldn't find anything for Alabama, but in Baltimore, Amazon fire around 10% of their workforce annually for failing to meet performance targets. I wasn't able to find any documentation of bonuses or higher pay for higher performance, only the 15.30 USD starting wage, but if anyone has evidence that compensation is higher for high performers, I'd be happy to see that. > Do you share a bank account with them? Why not? This question doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why are you asking this?
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > Leaving aside the fact that is perfectly possible for a union to negotiate performance-based pay and/or bonuses, I would be interested to think what you think a fair productivity:pay ratio would be for a worker in an Amazon fulfillment centre. Currently, I understand employees are held to such high productivity targets as a matter of course that many of them are afraid to take bathroom breaks in case their productivity dips and they end up getting fired. You know I heard those stories before I went to amazon, and while I wasn’t happy with the work conditions, it certainly wasn’t like that. So I’m not saying the stories are false. But I’m not convinced they are representative either, they certainly weren’t representative of my experience. I’ll answer your question with a question, how do you measure productivity? What percentage of productivity is contributed by labor, and what percentage by capital? We’re going to need this number if we are to answer your question anyway. > This seems to be a valid fear - I couldn't find anything for Alabama, but in Baltimore, Amazon fire around 10% of their workforce annually for failing to meet performance targets. That seems reasonable. I think Jack Welch had a similar policy. > This question doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why are you asking this? Gp said he/she were on the same team and have the same interests. If one has the same interests why does one have separate bank accounts?
  - d1sxeyes 6y ago
    > I’ll answer your question with a question, how do you measure productivity? What percentage of productivity is contributed by labor, and what percentage by capital? We’re going to need this number if we are to answer your question anyway. I personally don't really object to being paid the same as everyone who shares my job title and does substantially the same job as me, provided we're all making the same (and proportionate to hours worked). This was based on your statement that 'I do think its better to earn your own wage rather than an average of all wages. After all I contribute my own productivity, I don’t contribute some average negotiated productivity.' > That seems reasonable. I think Jack Welch had a similar policy. For a lot of people, that doesn't seem reasonable at all, but ultimately, you are entitled to your opinion. If you have first-hand experience working in a fulfillment centre and your opinion is that these stories aren't representative, then I will bow to your experience. > You said you’re on the same team and have the same interests. If you have the same interests why do you have separate bank accounts? Can we skip past the point where you try to get me to say something and move to the counterpoint you're trying to set up? The original statement was not me, actually, but in case it's one of the below, then I'm not arguing, but feel free to add what you need to make your point: - if one person 'earns more' then they should have the right to 'spend more' - if you want to spend your money differently to someone else then you don't have the same interests - how I spend my money shouldn't be dictated by other people (with provisos around tax, etc.) From my perspective though, the main point that I wanted to raise with you was the first one, that no-one is being forced to join, and no-one is losing any right to negotiate individually, so why shouldn't the people who want to unionise be allowed to do so?
door100 6y ago
You and your work are not an island. My productivity is not just my own, I am aided by mentors, supported by smart teammates, etc. I find your hyper individualist mindset very depressing and isolating. I think it would be foolish to claim that any success or talent of mine or my team is solely my own. I believe in social obligations, not just in the context of work, but in general. My goal is not to maximize my personal salary, but to live in a world that is more humane and more just and treats everyone, including myself, with dignity and respect. > Do you share a bank account with them? Why not? No, because I don’t have a pension, but many people do and I am fully in support of the concept.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > I find your hyper individualist mindset very depressing and isolating. I’m not a hyper individualist, a lot of this seems to be interpretation you’re bringing. > I think it would be foolish to claim that any success or talent of mine or my team is solely my own. There’s definitely a way to consider a person’s individual productivity in the context of a team of people they work with. Its not easy to measure or quantify and its definitely got subjective elements but some people are more productive than others and in a team that shares work, someone has to do the work that other people don’t do or it doesn’t get done. > I believe in social obligations, not just in the context of work, but in general. I believe in the power of incentives to shape behavior and I think there is a soft social obligation to align incentives so that they encourage desired behavior.