7 ms·

> higher performing workers Do you mean the ones that sit at their keyboards earning a multiple of the salaries of those who do the actual physical work necess

> higher performing workers Do you mean the ones that sit at their keyboards earning a multiple of the salaries of those who do the actual physical work necessary to serve customers. I often remind my colleagues that we are very lucky to have such easy and well paid jobs by asking the simple question, “how many bags of sand did you carry yesterday?”

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> Do you mean the ones that sit at their keyboards earning a multiple of the salaries of those who do the actual physical work necessary to serve customers. I mean “higher performing” according to the people who pay them. > I often remind my colleagues that we are very lucky to have such easy and well paid jobs by asking the simple question, “how many bags of sand did you carry yesterday?” I’ve been a welder/fabricator, machine operator, and forklift driver. Programming and web development isn’t easy although it isn’t physically arduous. Whats more relevant to our discussion is that a high performer is not as easily replaced. Physical work is honorable and demanding. Its also something a lot of people can do.
- flower-giraffe 6y ago
  > Whats more relevant to our discussion is that a high performer is not as easily replaced. I agree that a high performing developer is hard to find, but so is a high performing manual worker. Conversely in my experience retaining a high performing developer at market rates is easier, because the job is more rewarding (that’s what I think makes the job easier to do). I think what you are talking about is scarcity driving the market salary rates for developers, not performance. Personally I think a union with members including the scarce developers and the abundant manual workers would be a good thing for all the employees. I expect 20 years from now there will be no scarcity of developers, and the vast majority of them will not be paid nearly as much as US manual workers - primarily because they will be working in poorer countries with labour laws that favour the employer.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    > I agree that a high performing developer is hard to find, but so is a high performing manual worker. high performing manual workers negotiate superior wages unless they are restrained by a union > I think what you are talking about is scarcity driving the market salary rates for developers, not performance. So they are related but the key concept here is that a low performer is more easily replaced, and so does not have the negotiation power to negotiate a higher wage. So these workers benefit from a union. > Personally I think a union with members including the scarce developers and the abundant manual workers would be a good thing for all the employees. It would be a good thing for the replaceable workers and a bad thing for the less replaceable workers.
    - flower-giraffe 6y ago
      >key concept here is that a low performer is more easily replaced. It’s not easy to replace a low performing worker with scarce skills or domain specific knowledge. It not difficult to replace a manual worker that requires limited training or domain knowledge. Developers are paid way more than an equitable share of the salary share in organisations like Amazon because their skills are currently scarce. This will not be the case in 20 years.
      - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
        > It’s not easy to replace a low performing worker with scarce skills or domain specific knowledge. I’m defining “high performance” to include those sorts of persons. > Developers are paid way more than an equitable share of the salary share in organisations like Amazon because their skills are currently scarce. It is equitable precisely because those skills are scarce.
        flower-giraffe 6y ago
        >I’m defining “high performance” to include those sorts of persons. My point is that you may be confusing the ability to perform a function efficiently with the ability to perform a function that less people can do. I don’t think many here would define a VBA/Excel analyst that knows the data model and how to access a bunch of legacy platforms to produce a criterial report each month as high performing - but they’re scarce and difficult to replace. >It is equitable precisely because those skills are scarce. My use of the use of equitable was as a synonym for fair. I don’t think it’s fair that those who work in higher risk or less fulfilling jobs should be paid half as much. There are credible arguments about why it’s justified , but I don’t think there are any tenable arguments that it is fair.
bayindirh 6y ago
While I agree that workers who do physical work do not earn enough, it's not OK to simplify the work that sysadmins, developers and other people do. I for one work for 7 days a week for ~8 weeks now, and just sat and watched a wall to relax yesterday night because my brain and body refused to do absolutely anything. Every work is exhausting when overdone or just done with sufficient care.
- jbob2000 6y ago
  Great, now do the same thing but you have to lift boxes. And work in a dangerous environment. You will be exhausted but also in pain. Office work is not comparable at all.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    It can be. Some offices are hazardous (sick building syndrome, mold) on top of the problems associated with a sedentary lifestyle. Whereas some physical jobs are amazing (work outside, lots of breaks, stay in good shape because you’re moving a lot). It really depends on the specifics of the job.
  - bayindirh 6y ago
    > Great, now do the same thing but you have to lift boxes. We install our own datacenter hardware. Hundreds of servers. Carrying. Mounting. Cabling. I'm no stranger to hard, manual work. I feel tired, but I feel no pain. That's a different kind of being exhausted. Mental exhaustion cannot be compared with physical exhaustion. Both are hard, both are crippling, however one is not better than the other. It's also very satisfying to install a new fleet and bring it up while drinking tea with muscle tingling all over your body. Thank you.
- cudgy 6y ago
  And a warehouse worker would have to work 7 to 10 times longer in their “hell” to earn what you made.
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago

chordalkeyboard 6y ago

> Do you mean the ones that sit at their keyboards earning a multiple of the salaries of those who do the actual physical work necessary to serve customers. I mean “higher performing” according to the people who pay them. > I often remind my colleagues that we are very lucky to have such easy and well paid jobs by asking the simple question, “how many bags of sand did you carry yesterday?” I’ve been a welder/fabricator, machine operator, and forklift driver. Programming and web development isn’t easy although it isn’t physically arduous. Whats more relevant to our discussion is that a high performer is not as easily replaced. Physical work is honorable and demanding. Its also something a lot of people can do.

flower-giraffe 6y ago
> Whats more relevant to our discussion is that a high performer is not as easily replaced. I agree that a high performing developer is hard to find, but so is a high performing manual worker. Conversely in my experience retaining a high performing developer at market rates is easier, because the job is more rewarding (that’s what I think makes the job easier to do). I think what you are talking about is scarcity driving the market salary rates for developers, not performance. Personally I think a union with members including the scarce developers and the abundant manual workers would be a good thing for all the employees. I expect 20 years from now there will be no scarcity of developers, and the vast majority of them will not be paid nearly as much as US manual workers - primarily because they will be working in poorer countries with labour laws that favour the employer.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > I agree that a high performing developer is hard to find, but so is a high performing manual worker. high performing manual workers negotiate superior wages unless they are restrained by a union > I think what you are talking about is scarcity driving the market salary rates for developers, not performance. So they are related but the key concept here is that a low performer is more easily replaced, and so does not have the negotiation power to negotiate a higher wage. So these workers benefit from a union. > Personally I think a union with members including the scarce developers and the abundant manual workers would be a good thing for all the employees. It would be a good thing for the replaceable workers and a bad thing for the less replaceable workers.
  - flower-giraffe 6y ago
    >key concept here is that a low performer is more easily replaced. It’s not easy to replace a low performing worker with scarce skills or domain specific knowledge. It not difficult to replace a manual worker that requires limited training or domain knowledge. Developers are paid way more than an equitable share of the salary share in organisations like Amazon because their skills are currently scarce. This will not be the case in 20 years.
    - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
      > It’s not easy to replace a low performing worker with scarce skills or domain specific knowledge. I’m defining “high performance” to include those sorts of persons. > Developers are paid way more than an equitable share of the salary share in organisations like Amazon because their skills are currently scarce. It is equitable precisely because those skills are scarce.
      - flower-giraffe 6y ago
        >I’m defining “high performance” to include those sorts of persons. My point is that you may be confusing the ability to perform a function efficiently with the ability to perform a function that less people can do. I don’t think many here would define a VBA/Excel analyst that knows the data model and how to access a bunch of legacy platforms to produce a criterial report each month as high performing - but they’re scarce and difficult to replace. >It is equitable precisely because those skills are scarce. My use of the use of equitable was as a synonym for fair. I don’t think it’s fair that those who work in higher risk or less fulfilling jobs should be paid half as much. There are credible arguments about why it’s justified , but I don’t think there are any tenable arguments that it is fair.

bayindirh 6y ago

While I agree that workers who do physical work do not earn enough, it's not OK to simplify the work that sysadmins, developers and other people do. I for one work for 7 days a week for ~8 weeks now, and just sat and watched a wall to relax yesterday night because my brain and body refused to do absolutely anything. Every work is exhausting when overdone or just done with sufficient care.

jbob2000 6y ago
Great, now do the same thing but you have to lift boxes. And work in a dangerous environment. You will be exhausted but also in pain. Office work is not comparable at all.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  It can be. Some offices are hazardous (sick building syndrome, mold) on top of the problems associated with a sedentary lifestyle. Whereas some physical jobs are amazing (work outside, lots of breaks, stay in good shape because you’re moving a lot). It really depends on the specifics of the job.
- bayindirh 6y ago
  > Great, now do the same thing but you have to lift boxes. We install our own datacenter hardware. Hundreds of servers. Carrying. Mounting. Cabling. I'm no stranger to hard, manual work. I feel tired, but I feel no pain. That's a different kind of being exhausted. Mental exhaustion cannot be compared with physical exhaustion. Both are hard, both are crippling, however one is not better than the other. It's also very satisfying to install a new fleet and bring it up while drinking tea with muscle tingling all over your body. Thank you.
cudgy 6y ago
And a warehouse worker would have to work 7 to 10 times longer in their “hell” to earn what you made.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago