4 ms·

Chinese is the +- the most written language today, and uses pretty much the same system these convoluted logo-syllabaries did. I don't think there is any sort o

Chinese is the +- the most written language today, and uses pretty much the same system these convoluted logo-syllabaries did. I don't think there is any sort of evolution or progress story to be mined here.

ithkuil 6y ago
Do you find a good reference for the amount of contemporary written production per language? Chinese is often cited as the language that currently has the most native speakers (followed by spanish and the english); however written production doesn't necessarily have to follow that metric. For example I'm by no means a native English speaker yet my written production in english outweighs my native language production by several orders of magnitude (I mostly write grocery lists in my native language, that's it)
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  I am not a native speaker of English and yet somehow find myself writing my todo lists in English. I produce little more texts in my native language than some social communication.
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
Not quite. Chinese uses a system where every morpheme has it's own grapheme with some minor exceptions. Almost every grapheme maps to a single morpheme and thus a single pronunciation though there are obviously different morphemes with an identical pronunciation that might even be completely different parts of speech. It is more similar to how Japanese is written, which has graphemes that correspond to phonemic moræ in the language, as well as digraphs of graphemes to express more complicated moræ, as well as finally using Chinese characters to express concepts and ideas, not morphemes as it is in Chinese. Consequently, in Japanese the same Chinese character can be pronounced very differently depending on the context, similar to how, for instance the English words “kingly” and “royal” reflect the same general concept, but are pronounce very differently. What makes the situation even more complicated is that due to historical shifts in semantics, many word are now spelt with characters that no longer reflect the semantic concepts they express in modern times. On top of that, most of these grapheme combinations also have an official way to spell them within the phonemic script, and this is not as phonemic as one might want, with pronunciation exceptions being rampant. — the official way to spell them phonemically does not always map to the official way to pronounce them. I think modern Japanese might actually be a candidate for the language with the most complicated, least straightforward writing system that ever existed, given that it grows in complexity over time, rather than being simplified. The big difference, however, is that Chinese is a language that is exceptionally suited to be written in a script that has one logo for each morpheme, because Chinese is bereft of allomorphs: each morpheme in Chinese has only one pronunciation, unlike in, say English, where words such as “feet” exist, or the plural marker is pronounced as /s/ or /z/ depending on the stem it is attached to. Japanese is very much a language with allomorphs, much like English, which are not reflected in the Chinese characters, and the morphology of the Japanese verbal system is particularly ill-suited to be written how it is.
- KMag 6y ago
  Edit: I stand corrected. See below. > Chinese is bereft of allomorphs: each morpheme in Chinese has only one pronunciation This is untrue (edit: actually, it still appears true). For instance, https://www.fluentinmandarin.com/content/chinese-characters-multiple-pronunciations/ https://www.fluentinmandarin.com/content/chinese-characters-... "会 huì or kuài – Again, completely different meanings."
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    These are not allomorphs; these are the minor exceptions where one grapheme can refer to two different morphemes. — in each of those examples, the meaning changes with a different pronunciation. Allomorphs do not change meaning, and typically occur in complementary distribution. A good example would be the English words “a” and “an” being allomorphs, “a” can only occur where “an” can not, and vice versā, and both have the exact same meaning and function.
- account-5 6y ago
  Off topic but I read your whole post and still have no idea what you're talking about. I've never even heard of have the words you're using. I would need to Google a lot to work it out. ...takes self back to the dunces corner.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    - Grapheme: simply any symbol or character used in a script - Morpheme: the fundamental unit of meaning in a language, any part of speech whose meaning cannot be further subdivided “sleepwalkers” is thus composed of four morphemes: ”sleep”, “walk”, “er”, and “s”. - Allomorph: a different pronunciation of a same morpheme, typically dictated by grammatical or phonological reasons. The English words “a” and “an” are allomorphs. - Mora: a unit of timing that is relevant to the phonology of some languages. English is intuitively divided into syllables by it's speakers, which is a structural unit built around a syllabic nucleus, in English' case a vowel; Japanese is intuitively divided into moræ by it's speakers, which is a unit of time. English speakers typically find it hard to count moræ; Japanese speakers find it hard to count syllables. In Chinese, moræ and syllables are one and the same, with each syllable being pronounced in the same length; in English syllables have variable length with stressed syllables being longer, and mor constantly spaced apart compared to unstressed syllables and the vowel of the syllable also influences the length with some vowels being longer than others. - Phoneme: the fundamental unit of sound in a language. The English word “English” is composed of the phonemes: /I ng g l I S/ with each phoneme separated by spaces. Different languages differ in what they consider different phonemes. Most famously, Japanese considers what English considers as two different phonemes in /r/ and /l/ as one and the same phoneme, thus Japanese speakers find it difficult to hear the difference between the English words “root” /r u t/ and “loot” /l u t/. I think that covers it all.

ithkuil 6y ago

Do you find a good reference for the amount of contemporary written production per language? Chinese is often cited as the language that currently has the most native speakers (followed by spanish and the english); however written production doesn't necessarily have to follow that metric. For example I'm by no means a native English speaker yet my written production in english outweighs my native language production by several orders of magnitude (I mostly write grocery lists in my native language, that's it)

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
I am not a native speaker of English and yet somehow find myself writing my todo lists in English. I produce little more texts in my native language than some social communication.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

Not quite. Chinese uses a system where every morpheme has it's own grapheme with some minor exceptions. Almost every grapheme maps to a single morpheme and thus a single pronunciation though there are obviously different morphemes with an identical pronunciation that might even be completely different parts of speech. It is more similar to how Japanese is written, which has graphemes that correspond to phonemic moræ in the language, as well as digraphs of graphemes to express more complicated moræ, as well as finally using Chinese characters to express concepts and ideas, not morphemes as it is in Chinese. Consequently, in Japanese the same Chinese character can be pronounced very differently depending on the context, similar to how, for instance the English words “kingly” and “royal” reflect the same general concept, but are pronounce very differently. What makes the situation even more complicated is that due to historical shifts in semantics, many word are now spelt with characters that no longer reflect the semantic concepts they express in modern times. On top of that, most of these grapheme combinations also have an official way to spell them within the phonemic script, and this is not as phonemic as one might want, with pronunciation exceptions being rampant. — the official way to spell them phonemically does not always map to the official way to pronounce them. I think modern Japanese might actually be a candidate for the language with the most complicated, least straightforward writing system that ever existed, given that it grows in complexity over time, rather than being simplified. The big difference, however, is that Chinese is a language that is exceptionally suited to be written in a script that has one logo for each morpheme, because Chinese is bereft of allomorphs: each morpheme in Chinese has only one pronunciation, unlike in, say English, where words such as “feet” exist, or the plural marker is pronounced as /s/ or /z/ depending on the stem it is attached to. Japanese is very much a language with allomorphs, much like English, which are not reflected in the Chinese characters, and the morphology of the Japanese verbal system is particularly ill-suited to be written how it is.

KMag 6y ago
Edit: I stand corrected. See below. > Chinese is bereft of allomorphs: each morpheme in Chinese has only one pronunciation This is untrue (edit: actually, it still appears true). For instance, https://www.fluentinmandarin.com/content/chinese-characters-multiple-pronunciations/ https://www.fluentinmandarin.com/content/chinese-characters-... "会 huì or kuài – Again, completely different meanings."
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  These are not allomorphs; these are the minor exceptions where one grapheme can refer to two different morphemes. — in each of those examples, the meaning changes with a different pronunciation. Allomorphs do not change meaning, and typically occur in complementary distribution. A good example would be the English words “a” and “an” being allomorphs, “a” can only occur where “an” can not, and vice versā, and both have the exact same meaning and function.
account-5 6y ago
Off topic but I read your whole post and still have no idea what you're talking about. I've never even heard of have the words you're using. I would need to Google a lot to work it out. ...takes self back to the dunces corner.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  - Grapheme: simply any symbol or character used in a script - Morpheme: the fundamental unit of meaning in a language, any part of speech whose meaning cannot be further subdivided “sleepwalkers” is thus composed of four morphemes: ”sleep”, “walk”, “er”, and “s”. - Allomorph: a different pronunciation of a same morpheme, typically dictated by grammatical or phonological reasons. The English words “a” and “an” are allomorphs. - Mora: a unit of timing that is relevant to the phonology of some languages. English is intuitively divided into syllables by it's speakers, which is a structural unit built around a syllabic nucleus, in English' case a vowel; Japanese is intuitively divided into moræ by it's speakers, which is a unit of time. English speakers typically find it hard to count moræ; Japanese speakers find it hard to count syllables. In Chinese, moræ and syllables are one and the same, with each syllable being pronounced in the same length; in English syllables have variable length with stressed syllables being longer, and mor constantly spaced apart compared to unstressed syllables and the vowel of the syllable also influences the length with some vowels being longer than others. - Phoneme: the fundamental unit of sound in a language. The English word “English” is composed of the phonemes: /I ng g l I S/ with each phoneme separated by spaces. Different languages differ in what they consider different phonemes. Most famously, Japanese considers what English considers as two different phonemes in /r/ and /l/ as one and the same phoneme, thus Japanese speakers find it difficult to hear the difference between the English words “root” /r u t/ and “loot” /l u t/. I think that covers it all.