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I'm not trying to convince you, I just wanted to answer your question. I don't think it's possible to convince you in the space of one comment, and if it is, I'

I'm not trying to convince you, I just wanted to answer your question. I don't think it's possible to convince you in the space of one comment, and if it is, I'm not the one to do it. This is a centuries-old argument with absolutely no expert consensus that seems to get more difficult the more you study the issue. If you want an easy to read modern political argument you can read Break Em' Up by Zephyr Teachout. If you want a more academic approach I would look up the syllabus of an antitrust course and read some court cases, but different syllabi will probably give you wildly different conclusions. Supreme Court cases from a couple decades apart will give you different conclusions. As I said earlier, there is no right answer, it's about balancing inherently conflicting rights and deciding where to draw the line.

SllX 6y ago
> I'm not trying to convince you, I just wanted to answer your question. Sure it is, if there is a good convincing case, you can in the space of a single comment at least get me to seriously question and re-evaluate my priors, check out your book recommendations, and I would do the rest from there whether I ended up agreeing or disagreeing in the end. Let’s start with what is the impetus for action? Inaction is easy, it’s the default, but if my Representative (presently Pelosi) or US Senators or their eventual opponents and/or replacements trotted that line about how a company shouldn’t be able to get this big, out without an attempt at a good explanation as why we should cap the size of a corporation’s growth, I would throw them from the average politician column into the crazy column. Not just because they are taking that position, reasonable people can disagree, but because they would be seeking power on that position and they would be seeking an expansion of Federal power and action with that position without justification, without a limiting principle, frankly it looks arbitrary and capricious like an imaginary line that exists only in their mind that no company’s market valuation must ever cross without consequence. The political will to power that led to the anti-trust legislation, prosecution and conviction wasn’t that the defendants were merely too big for their britches; it was their abuse of a market dominant position that it was argued harmed the public. Even today reasonable people can disagree on whether this was a justifiable course of action on the part of the government, but I am not here to re-litigate historical events. Is the present position of Amazon and its close peers and the other >$100B companies as measured by their market valuations, not market share, not cash and other assets, but present market valuations, equivalent or like to the situations in the past where the government was willing and able to successfully pull the trigger of the antitrust gun? To reiterate, what is the impetus that we must act given the facts that we have about these contemporary corporations with such immensely high valuations?
- burkaman 6y ago
  Ok, this thread is mostly about Amazon, so let's talk about impetus for action against them. 1. Documented examples of Amazon knowingly using predatory pricing to put a competitor out of business, most famously with Diapers.com. Amazon saw them as a "#1 short term competitor", lowered their prices and took a loss so Diapers.com couldn't compete, and then raised prices again once they were able to acquire their competitor. https://twitter.com/HouseJudiciary/status/1288556281016520705 https://twitter.com/HouseJudiciary/status/128855628101652070..., https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-29/amazon-emails-show-effort-to-weaken-diapers-com-before-buying-it https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-29/amazon-em..., https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/predatory-or-below-cost https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a..., https://academic.oup.com/antitrust/article-abstract/7/2/203/5321201?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://academic.oup.com/antitrust/article-abstract/7/2/203/... 2. National "competition" that convinced hundreds of city and state governments to offer billions of dollars in subsidies that most economists agree are harmful to the places that offer them. You can blame this on incompetent governments if you want, but the incentive must have been pretty strong if so many of them fell for it. Maybe too strong? 3. Amazon controls its market and is also a participant, so it can promote its own products above competitors'. It can give its own stuff a bump in the search results, or give it a nice looking "Amazon's Choice" badge, or advertise it next to competition, whatever. Even the potential of abusing this power is a problem. 4. If Amazon were to ever abuse its position to harm a seller or employee, they cannot be sued: https://prospect.org/labor/biggest-abuser-forced-arbitration-amazon/ https://prospect.org/labor/biggest-abuser-forced-arbitration... 5. Amazon has enormous market share of online retail, but sees third party sellers as competition and often works against them. Many sellers simply do not have a realistic alternative, even if they don't like Amazon's terms. This is a news article with a lot of allegations that you may not immediately believe, but I think it can at least be considered an impetus for investigation: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/01/amazon-sellers-say-online-retail-giant-is-trying-help-itself-not-consumers/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/01/amazon-... 6. Amazon Alexa has a nearly 70% market share in the US, an absurdly high number. Alexa is not a standalone product, it is deeply integrated into the Amazon ecosystem and is used to promote other business lines. You can also search for Amazon in here for some better researched claims: https://judiciary.house.gov/uploadedfiles/competition_in_digital_markets.pdf https://judiciary.house.gov/uploadedfiles/competition_in_dig...

SllX 6y ago

> I'm not trying to convince you, I just wanted to answer your question. Sure it is, if there is a good convincing case, you can in the space of a single comment at least get me to seriously question and re-evaluate my priors, check out your book recommendations, and I would do the rest from there whether I ended up agreeing or disagreeing in the end. Let’s start with what is the impetus for action? Inaction is easy, it’s the default, but if my Representative (presently Pelosi) or US Senators or their eventual opponents and/or replacements trotted that line about how a company shouldn’t be able to get this big, out without an attempt at a good explanation as why we should cap the size of a corporation’s growth, I would throw them from the average politician column into the crazy column. Not just because they are taking that position, reasonable people can disagree, but because they would be seeking power on that position and they would be seeking an expansion of Federal power and action with that position without justification, without a limiting principle, frankly it looks arbitrary and capricious like an imaginary line that exists only in their mind that no company’s market valuation must ever cross without consequence. The political will to power that led to the anti-trust legislation, prosecution and conviction wasn’t that the defendants were merely too big for their britches; it was their abuse of a market dominant position that it was argued harmed the public. Even today reasonable people can disagree on whether this was a justifiable course of action on the part of the government, but I am not here to re-litigate historical events. Is the present position of Amazon and its close peers and the other >$100B companies as measured by their market valuations, not market share, not cash and other assets, but present market valuations, equivalent or like to the situations in the past where the government was willing and able to successfully pull the trigger of the antitrust gun? To reiterate, what is the impetus that we must act given the facts that we have about these contemporary corporations with such immensely high valuations?

burkaman 6y ago
Ok, this thread is mostly about Amazon, so let's talk about impetus for action against them. 1. Documented examples of Amazon knowingly using predatory pricing to put a competitor out of business, most famously with Diapers.com. Amazon saw them as a "#1 short term competitor", lowered their prices and took a loss so Diapers.com couldn't compete, and then raised prices again once they were able to acquire their competitor. https://twitter.com/HouseJudiciary/status/1288556281016520705 https://twitter.com/HouseJudiciary/status/128855628101652070..., https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-29/amazon-emails-show-effort-to-weaken-diapers-com-before-buying-it https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-29/amazon-em..., https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/predatory-or-below-cost https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a..., https://academic.oup.com/antitrust/article-abstract/7/2/203/5321201?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://academic.oup.com/antitrust/article-abstract/7/2/203/... 2. National "competition" that convinced hundreds of city and state governments to offer billions of dollars in subsidies that most economists agree are harmful to the places that offer them. You can blame this on incompetent governments if you want, but the incentive must have been pretty strong if so many of them fell for it. Maybe too strong? 3. Amazon controls its market and is also a participant, so it can promote its own products above competitors'. It can give its own stuff a bump in the search results, or give it a nice looking "Amazon's Choice" badge, or advertise it next to competition, whatever. Even the potential of abusing this power is a problem. 4. If Amazon were to ever abuse its position to harm a seller or employee, they cannot be sued: https://prospect.org/labor/biggest-abuser-forced-arbitration-amazon/ https://prospect.org/labor/biggest-abuser-forced-arbitration... 5. Amazon has enormous market share of online retail, but sees third party sellers as competition and often works against them. Many sellers simply do not have a realistic alternative, even if they don't like Amazon's terms. This is a news article with a lot of allegations that you may not immediately believe, but I think it can at least be considered an impetus for investigation: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/01/amazon-sellers-say-online-retail-giant-is-trying-help-itself-not-consumers/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/01/amazon-... 6. Amazon Alexa has a nearly 70% market share in the US, an absurdly high number. Alexa is not a standalone product, it is deeply integrated into the Amazon ecosystem and is used to promote other business lines. You can also search for Amazon in here for some better researched claims: https://judiciary.house.gov/uploadedfiles/competition_in_digital_markets.pdf https://judiciary.house.gov/uploadedfiles/competition_in_dig...