6 ms·

Worse than disincentivizing people from working, it disincentivizes people from risking money on growth (building companies, doing startups, angel investing).

Worse than disincentivizing people from working, it disincentivizes people from risking money on growth (building companies, doing startups, angel investing). Interest isn’t predatory, it encourages growth and investment in building businesses. Look at the enormous wealth created by capitalism. Economic growth helps the most people the fastest, this model works. That doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be protections on the lower bound and human rights, there should be. It also doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be environmental protections or regulations to effectively coordinate and prevent tragedy of the commons style failures. We should also prevent wealth being able to leverage political power (which isn’t easy).

gher-shyu3i 6y ago
> Interest isn’t predatory It is by the very fact that the lender is owed money in the contract by doing basically nothing. Proper investment balances the risk between parties, so that one party does not have an inherent advantage over the other. This is part of running a moral and just society. > Look at the enormous wealth created by capitalism Red herring. The system is fundamentally unstable, by the very fact that people are on the lookout for the next economic crash because it's built into the system. When that happens, people with money are able to acquire even more assets, increasing the divide. I'm all for people making money, as long as they do it the moral way. Interest is immoral and predatory.
- fossuser 6y ago
  The lender is paid for the service of lending money out (which incurs risk). You want to incentivize this behavior. Without interest, it would be harder for people to get loans. Lots of financial services wouldn’t exist (or would demand some other form of payment). This would keep people who aren’t already rich unable to access capital. People react to incentives, good incentives lead to beneficial behavior. Interest is extremely net positive, both for lenders and for borrowers (and society). Everyone wins. Crashes aren’t really built into the system or a fault of capitalism, they happen because problems are hard to predict and the environment changes. The wealth created isn’t only for the rich: https://press.stripe.com/#stubborn-attachments https://press.stripe.com/#stubborn-attachments everyone benefits from economic growth. I think Islamic law (or really any religious framework) has very little of value to say on the topic of morality or running a productive society.
  - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
    > The lender is paid for the service of lending money out (which incurs risk). You want to incentivize this behavior. Not all forms of payment are ethical or moral (e.g. prostitution). This is an exploitative practice, and should definitely not be incentivized as we've seen time and time again the destructive effect it has on society and the economic system. > This would keep people who aren’t already rich unable to access capital. This is why Islam has Zakat laws to ensure the poor are lifted out of poverty. We keep seeing the dems trying to solve the problem by increasing taxation, but to no avail. Islam solved the problem over 1400 years ago. > I think Islamic law (or really any religious framework) has very little of value to say on the topic of morality or running a productive society. Morality does not exist without religion. Secondly, Islam has proven to have run one of the most successful societies of all time, and definitely the most moral since Islam came. We still benefit of the discoveries made during the Islamic Golden Age.
    - fossuser 6y ago
      > "Not all forms of payment are ethical or moral" Ok sure, but interest is fine. > "This is why Islam has Zakat laws to ensure the poor are lifted out of poverty." Charity isn't as good as letting people get access to capital that they can leverage for themselves. We're not going to agree on this so can probably leave it here. I will say I think morality exists in spite of religion. It's not hard to pick out examples where Islam fails on the morality issue, see: women's rights and the recent Charlie Hebdo murders, both driven by ideology. This is off-topic flame war material though.
      - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
        > Ok sure, but interest is fine. As I originally pointed out, interest is prohibited in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity (at least) for a good reason. It's not ethical nor moral, in fact, it's destructive and parasitic. > Charity isn't as good as letting people get access to capital that they can leverage for themselves. It lifts people out of poverty to get them on their feet. There are many funds that provide people with access to capital (e.g. accelerators). Capital is not limited to interest bearing loans. The simplest example is pitching an idea to investors who in return own a portion of a potential company. If it works out, both parties benefit, otherwise, both parties equally took on the risk. > women's rights Those are cherry picked by anti-Islamic rhetoric drivers who have shown their ignorance and lies time and time again, and whose arguments fall apart the moment they're critically discussed. It's really meaningless talk that gets thrown around. > and the recent Charlie Hebdo murders, Easy refutation: you're going to have to show that Islam itself condones or required such murders to take place.

gher-shyu3i 6y ago

> Interest isn’t predatory It is by the very fact that the lender is owed money in the contract by doing basically nothing. Proper investment balances the risk between parties, so that one party does not have an inherent advantage over the other. This is part of running a moral and just society. > Look at the enormous wealth created by capitalism Red herring. The system is fundamentally unstable, by the very fact that people are on the lookout for the next economic crash because it's built into the system. When that happens, people with money are able to acquire even more assets, increasing the divide. I'm all for people making money, as long as they do it the moral way. Interest is immoral and predatory.

fossuser 6y ago
The lender is paid for the service of lending money out (which incurs risk). You want to incentivize this behavior. Without interest, it would be harder for people to get loans. Lots of financial services wouldn’t exist (or would demand some other form of payment). This would keep people who aren’t already rich unable to access capital. People react to incentives, good incentives lead to beneficial behavior. Interest is extremely net positive, both for lenders and for borrowers (and society). Everyone wins. Crashes aren’t really built into the system or a fault of capitalism, they happen because problems are hard to predict and the environment changes. The wealth created isn’t only for the rich: https://press.stripe.com/#stubborn-attachments https://press.stripe.com/#stubborn-attachments everyone benefits from economic growth. I think Islamic law (or really any religious framework) has very little of value to say on the topic of morality or running a productive society.
- gher-shyu3i 6y ago
  > The lender is paid for the service of lending money out (which incurs risk). You want to incentivize this behavior. Not all forms of payment are ethical or moral (e.g. prostitution). This is an exploitative practice, and should definitely not be incentivized as we've seen time and time again the destructive effect it has on society and the economic system. > This would keep people who aren’t already rich unable to access capital. This is why Islam has Zakat laws to ensure the poor are lifted out of poverty. We keep seeing the dems trying to solve the problem by increasing taxation, but to no avail. Islam solved the problem over 1400 years ago. > I think Islamic law (or really any religious framework) has very little of value to say on the topic of morality or running a productive society. Morality does not exist without religion. Secondly, Islam has proven to have run one of the most successful societies of all time, and definitely the most moral since Islam came. We still benefit of the discoveries made during the Islamic Golden Age.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    > "Not all forms of payment are ethical or moral" Ok sure, but interest is fine. > "This is why Islam has Zakat laws to ensure the poor are lifted out of poverty." Charity isn't as good as letting people get access to capital that they can leverage for themselves. We're not going to agree on this so can probably leave it here. I will say I think morality exists in spite of religion. It's not hard to pick out examples where Islam fails on the morality issue, see: women's rights and the recent Charlie Hebdo murders, both driven by ideology. This is off-topic flame war material though.
    - gher-shyu3i 6y ago
      > Ok sure, but interest is fine. As I originally pointed out, interest is prohibited in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity (at least) for a good reason. It's not ethical nor moral, in fact, it's destructive and parasitic. > Charity isn't as good as letting people get access to capital that they can leverage for themselves. It lifts people out of poverty to get them on their feet. There are many funds that provide people with access to capital (e.g. accelerators). Capital is not limited to interest bearing loans. The simplest example is pitching an idea to investors who in return own a portion of a potential company. If it works out, both parties benefit, otherwise, both parties equally took on the risk. > women's rights Those are cherry picked by anti-Islamic rhetoric drivers who have shown their ignorance and lies time and time again, and whose arguments fall apart the moment they're critically discussed. It's really meaningless talk that gets thrown around. > and the recent Charlie Hebdo murders, Easy refutation: you're going to have to show that Islam itself condones or required such murders to take place.