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Show stopper for Ubuntu was screen capture. So screen capture works today, and if they switched, if would be difficult only for the first few weeks, when Ubuntu

Show stopper for Ubuntu was screen capture. So screen capture works today, and if they switched, if would be difficult only for the first few weeks, when Ubuntu is buggy anyway. But they didn't and the long-term consequences of delaying it will be felt across all linux distributions for years to come. So much for appeasing RH and it's fanbase.

simion314 6y ago
I disagree, this happened before with pulseaudio, it was not ready and for years people would recommend to remove it, so the leason is not replace something that works now with something that is shiny but might work next year. I also think NVIDIA had a role in this default display issue, Ubuntu has to use something that actually works on all hardware combinations,competent users can install and try a Wayland implementation or all of them.
- vetinari 6y ago
  There are still people who uninstall pulseaudio, because "bloat" and then harass authors of audio applications to support their snowflake system. The forced PA brought some pain. but it forced swift improvement in audio drivers. Without it, we would still have half-buggy drivers that do not really work. Regarding Nvidia: all distributions that switched to Wayland default switched that only for supported hardware, so Nvidia users are still getting X11. I don't expect Ubuntu doing it differently.
  - simion314 6y ago
    I still think is terrible for the users but probably great for some developers. So you would force the casual user that has no issue with X to suffer so the Wayland and GNOME/KDE developers would hear better the pain and fix the bugs and add the missing features. This is the job of bleeding edge distros to offer you the latest bugs and features. I understand that when you work on your free time you want to work on shiny stuff that maybe you created and not on someone else old code, but for good results we see all the time that serious money need to be spend and developers need to be made to work on users feedback and not on what they like. Red Hat is pushing this, they have the money so they need to find more competent developers and do it right.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      There is no split "terrible for users, great for some developers". Casual users do have issue with X; see this thread recently on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25970690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25970690. Would you consider that normal for users to handle? Of course not. Casual users having no issue with X is a lie. The fact is, that some subsytems on Linux are pile of hacks piled upon something built on assumptions that are no longer true. X11 is one of such subsystems. It is a dead end. When you are stuck in the dead end, you can either back up and once you are out, continue in your ride, or keep being stuck in the dead end. Wayland is backing out of the dead end; yes, it is short-term, high intensity pain, when you are not going forward, and even have to go back for a while. Piling new hacks on top of X11 is trying how to continue going forward without backing out of that dead-end. You will be stuck in that place for a long time, and ultimately you will move nowhere. That is long-term, low-intensity pain. Some people do not take the long term view (or do want to avoid high-intensity pain), being stuck in a place works for them (and chronic low-intensity pain is fine to them). These two approaches still clash, it is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0, all over again, 10 years later.
      - simion314 6y ago
        I agree that Xorg has issues, I disagree that Wayland was the best solution. Creating a protocol that specifies a subset of the features and then taking mroe then 10 years to get decent implementations for the subsets and then still having no unique answer on how to do global keyboard shortcuts and that pathetic delay until we got some kind of screenshot and screen recording solution... If RH were actually competent would have had a roadmap and Xorg would be replaced with some Wayland implementation only when all X featues are ready. Until then RH can label it as Beta. I don't like how you propose this unfinished stuff is pushed on users so maybe someone would get frustrated enough and make RH job, like WTF RH has tons of money, they could fins competent people to implement the missing stuff 10 years ago, and while at it they could have fucking fixed GTK or maybe buy Qt and the dev team .

simion314 6y ago

I disagree, this happened before with pulseaudio, it was not ready and for years people would recommend to remove it, so the leason is not replace something that works now with something that is shiny but might work next year. I also think NVIDIA had a role in this default display issue, Ubuntu has to use something that actually works on all hardware combinations,competent users can install and try a Wayland implementation or all of them.

vetinari 6y ago
There are still people who uninstall pulseaudio, because "bloat" and then harass authors of audio applications to support their snowflake system. The forced PA brought some pain. but it forced swift improvement in audio drivers. Without it, we would still have half-buggy drivers that do not really work. Regarding Nvidia: all distributions that switched to Wayland default switched that only for supported hardware, so Nvidia users are still getting X11. I don't expect Ubuntu doing it differently.
- simion314 6y ago
  I still think is terrible for the users but probably great for some developers. So you would force the casual user that has no issue with X to suffer so the Wayland and GNOME/KDE developers would hear better the pain and fix the bugs and add the missing features. This is the job of bleeding edge distros to offer you the latest bugs and features. I understand that when you work on your free time you want to work on shiny stuff that maybe you created and not on someone else old code, but for good results we see all the time that serious money need to be spend and developers need to be made to work on users feedback and not on what they like. Red Hat is pushing this, they have the money so they need to find more competent developers and do it right.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    There is no split "terrible for users, great for some developers". Casual users do have issue with X; see this thread recently on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25970690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25970690. Would you consider that normal for users to handle? Of course not. Casual users having no issue with X is a lie. The fact is, that some subsytems on Linux are pile of hacks piled upon something built on assumptions that are no longer true. X11 is one of such subsystems. It is a dead end. When you are stuck in the dead end, you can either back up and once you are out, continue in your ride, or keep being stuck in the dead end. Wayland is backing out of the dead end; yes, it is short-term, high intensity pain, when you are not going forward, and even have to go back for a while. Piling new hacks on top of X11 is trying how to continue going forward without backing out of that dead-end. You will be stuck in that place for a long time, and ultimately you will move nowhere. That is long-term, low-intensity pain. Some people do not take the long term view (or do want to avoid high-intensity pain), being stuck in a place works for them (and chronic low-intensity pain is fine to them). These two approaches still clash, it is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0, all over again, 10 years later.
    - simion314 6y ago
      I agree that Xorg has issues, I disagree that Wayland was the best solution. Creating a protocol that specifies a subset of the features and then taking mroe then 10 years to get decent implementations for the subsets and then still having no unique answer on how to do global keyboard shortcuts and that pathetic delay until we got some kind of screenshot and screen recording solution... If RH were actually competent would have had a roadmap and Xorg would be replaced with some Wayland implementation only when all X featues are ready. Until then RH can label it as Beta. I don't like how you propose this unfinished stuff is pushed on users so maybe someone would get frustrated enough and make RH job, like WTF RH has tons of money, they could fins competent people to implement the missing stuff 10 years ago, and while at it they could have fucking fixed GTK or maybe buy Qt and the dev team .