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As a product manager, my immediate response is... not worth the time. You've chosen to have a unique setup, which is fine, but your use case represents some ab

As a product manager, my immediate response is... not worth the time. You've chosen to have a unique setup, which is fine, but your use case represents some absolutely miniscule fraction of users. On top of that, it's not even that websites are unusable, just that they're not ideal. When you decide to do weird/special/unique stuff, don't expect the world to adapt to you. You can rotate your monitor back or live with it. The idea that companies should spend engineering/QA/PM resources to deal with this is... vain.

marssaxman 6y ago
You don't need to rotate your screen; just shrink your browser. I know that lots of people like to use fullscreen windows, but that makes me feel claustrophobic; text ought to be formatted in narrower columns for comfortable reading, so I like narrower browsers. This often fools websites into sending me the phone layout, which is unhelpful and annoying.
- NeutronStar 6y ago
  So what's your solution? How do we differentiate between a tablet user and someone who decided to shrink their windows?
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    Copying from elsewhere in this thread: `@media (pointer: coarse)`
    - capableweb 6y ago
      Don't think that's quite right either. Pointer coarse would just refer to the device used for pointing. Using a tablet with a mouse would be "pointer: fine" but it's still a tablet. As always, the issue isn't black and white. There is no solution that always works, because it depends on what you're targeting. If you want to scale elements to be easier clickable for people who might devices where it's harder to click/tap accurately, then "pointer: coarse" makes sense. If you're thinking about scaling elements on the website, some other solution fits better. Which one? Again depends on what you're aiming for.
      - samatman 6y ago
        > Using a tablet with a mouse would be "pointer: fine" I would want to check this empirically before accepting it as gospel. At least on the iPad, a mouse pointer is kinda halfway between a finger and a classic mouse pointer, and having to guess, my guess is that Safari doesn't change the designation just because there's a mouse plugged in.
        jamiek88 6y ago
        Safari simulates a finger press when mouse is clicked. I’m 99% sure. Will check.
      - lolinder 6y ago
        The spec distinguishes between "pointer: coarse" and "any-pointer: coarse", where the former only asks about the primary pointer. I'd assume that tablets would leave "pointer" unchanged even if a mouse is plugged in, though I haven't verified that. And aside from that, shouldn't a tablet where a mouse is being used as the primary input show buttons sized appropriately for a mouse, rather than larger ones? The whole idea of making buttons bigger on mobile is to accommodate thumbs, so it seems like this media query is exactly what we should be using.
TomSwirly 6y ago
> You've chosen to have a unique setup, But is this unique? Lots of people prefer to have windows that are significantly taller than wide - just like books are. I'd love to see some hard data on this. > The idea that companies should spend engineering/QA/PM resources to deal with this is... vain. /eyeroll
- speedgoose 6y ago
  The author gets a mobile layout not because of the portrait mode but because of zooming on the websites. Most responsive websites do not care about whether the screen is in portrait or landscape.
- awillen 6y ago
  Hah, look at this guy - "lots of people prefer", he says, before saying he'd love to see hard data. Feel free to go find some hard data, then. I've dealt with a lot of people with computers in my personal life and my career, and well under 1% of them have had this setup. I'm not going to go find data to prove something obvious to a guy on the internet. It's like a Trump support insisting there's fraud and then telling everyone else to prove there isn't. Eye roll all you want, but I have dealt with so many customers like this as an enterprise software PM. Usually it was with Salesforce configurations... my favorite was the guy who had a truly bizarre custom Salesforce setup that had two copies of every user. I was managing a product that synced their data from Salesforce to our product. It was a problem for his users of our product that there were duplicate copies of every user, and he wanted us to fix that. No sir - when we were selling this to you we explained that we sync all users... just because you assumed we'd somehow magically dedupe yours in your insane setup doesn't make that reality. You're free to configure the products you use in unique and interesting ways. Just don't expect other people who develop tools for those products to make them work for your configuration.
ss64 6y ago
People with disabilities or visual impairments often have unusual setups that enable them to read. They didn't CHOOSE to be disabled.
- kaishiro 6y ago
  This discussion isn't about screenreaders or accessibility - and there is nothing to suggest that being delivered a mobile version of a site would make it less accessible by default. In fact, speaking as someone with a blind family member who has done extensive reviews of highly trafficked sites - the mobile version is often vastly more accessible than the desktop version of many top ranking sites. All of that aside, I think you're being disingenuous in trying to strongarm this as some sort of rebuttal to parents comment.
- SulfurHexaFluri 6y ago
  Accessibility features are almost always not worth it purely from a profit point of view. They get added because as a society we decided that everyone should go out of their way to accommodate these users because they have no choice and should not be locked out of life. The author here can simply deal with it or turn their monitor the other way.
- awillen 6y ago
  This isn't about them. This is about a guy who chooses to have his monitor vertical. Don't take things wildly out of context in an effort to make it sound like people have made points which they absolutely have not.
SirSavary 6y ago
Seems to me that proper DPI detection might lead to a better experience across all "unique" monitor setups, not just this one. Is it extra work? Sure. I thought we referred to that as polish.
- SulfurHexaFluri 6y ago
  Is DPI a good measure though? Some cheap phones have rubbish DPIs while expensive monitors have very high dpi. Not sure if this exists already but the idea method would be to use the physical size in cm of the display.
  - rjmunro 6y ago
    I tried dpi.lv on my 2 monitors and my phone. It said: Resolution: 3360 × 2100 Diagonal: 13.3″ Resolution: 2560 × 1440 Diagonal: 13.3″ Resolution: 2160 × 1080 Diagonal: 13.3″ (my monitors are 15.5" and 27" diagonal, my phone is 6") Maybe I'm crazy for using my phone in landscape mode, but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to tell which of those measurements is a phone.
deleted 6y ago
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marssaxman 6y ago

You don't need to rotate your screen; just shrink your browser. I know that lots of people like to use fullscreen windows, but that makes me feel claustrophobic; text ought to be formatted in narrower columns for comfortable reading, so I like narrower browsers. This often fools websites into sending me the phone layout, which is unhelpful and annoying.

NeutronStar 6y ago
So what's your solution? How do we differentiate between a tablet user and someone who decided to shrink their windows?
- ironmagma 6y ago
  Copying from elsewhere in this thread: `@media (pointer: coarse)`
  - capableweb 6y ago
    Don't think that's quite right either. Pointer coarse would just refer to the device used for pointing. Using a tablet with a mouse would be "pointer: fine" but it's still a tablet. As always, the issue isn't black and white. There is no solution that always works, because it depends on what you're targeting. If you want to scale elements to be easier clickable for people who might devices where it's harder to click/tap accurately, then "pointer: coarse" makes sense. If you're thinking about scaling elements on the website, some other solution fits better. Which one? Again depends on what you're aiming for.
    - samatman 6y ago
      > Using a tablet with a mouse would be "pointer: fine" I would want to check this empirically before accepting it as gospel. At least on the iPad, a mouse pointer is kinda halfway between a finger and a classic mouse pointer, and having to guess, my guess is that Safari doesn't change the designation just because there's a mouse plugged in.
      - jamiek88 6y ago
        Safari simulates a finger press when mouse is clicked. I’m 99% sure. Will check.
    - lolinder 6y ago
      The spec distinguishes between "pointer: coarse" and "any-pointer: coarse", where the former only asks about the primary pointer. I'd assume that tablets would leave "pointer" unchanged even if a mouse is plugged in, though I haven't verified that. And aside from that, shouldn't a tablet where a mouse is being used as the primary input show buttons sized appropriately for a mouse, rather than larger ones? The whole idea of making buttons bigger on mobile is to accommodate thumbs, so it seems like this media query is exactly what we should be using.

TomSwirly 6y ago

> You've chosen to have a unique setup, But is this unique? Lots of people prefer to have windows that are significantly taller than wide - just like books are. I'd love to see some hard data on this. > The idea that companies should spend engineering/QA/PM resources to deal with this is... vain. /eyeroll

speedgoose 6y ago
The author gets a mobile layout not because of the portrait mode but because of zooming on the websites. Most responsive websites do not care about whether the screen is in portrait or landscape.
awillen 6y ago
Hah, look at this guy - "lots of people prefer", he says, before saying he'd love to see hard data. Feel free to go find some hard data, then. I've dealt with a lot of people with computers in my personal life and my career, and well under 1% of them have had this setup. I'm not going to go find data to prove something obvious to a guy on the internet. It's like a Trump support insisting there's fraud and then telling everyone else to prove there isn't. Eye roll all you want, but I have dealt with so many customers like this as an enterprise software PM. Usually it was with Salesforce configurations... my favorite was the guy who had a truly bizarre custom Salesforce setup that had two copies of every user. I was managing a product that synced their data from Salesforce to our product. It was a problem for his users of our product that there were duplicate copies of every user, and he wanted us to fix that. No sir - when we were selling this to you we explained that we sync all users... just because you assumed we'd somehow magically dedupe yours in your insane setup doesn't make that reality. You're free to configure the products you use in unique and interesting ways. Just don't expect other people who develop tools for those products to make them work for your configuration.

ss64 6y ago

People with disabilities or visual impairments often have unusual setups that enable them to read. They didn't CHOOSE to be disabled.

kaishiro 6y ago
This discussion isn't about screenreaders or accessibility - and there is nothing to suggest that being delivered a mobile version of a site would make it less accessible by default. In fact, speaking as someone with a blind family member who has done extensive reviews of highly trafficked sites - the mobile version is often vastly more accessible than the desktop version of many top ranking sites. All of that aside, I think you're being disingenuous in trying to strongarm this as some sort of rebuttal to parents comment.
SulfurHexaFluri 6y ago
Accessibility features are almost always not worth it purely from a profit point of view. They get added because as a society we decided that everyone should go out of their way to accommodate these users because they have no choice and should not be locked out of life. The author here can simply deal with it or turn their monitor the other way.
awillen 6y ago
This isn't about them. This is about a guy who chooses to have his monitor vertical. Don't take things wildly out of context in an effort to make it sound like people have made points which they absolutely have not.

SirSavary 6y ago

Seems to me that proper DPI detection might lead to a better experience across all "unique" monitor setups, not just this one. Is it extra work? Sure. I thought we referred to that as polish.

SulfurHexaFluri 6y ago
Is DPI a good measure though? Some cheap phones have rubbish DPIs while expensive monitors have very high dpi. Not sure if this exists already but the idea method would be to use the physical size in cm of the display.
- rjmunro 6y ago
  I tried dpi.lv on my 2 monitors and my phone. It said: Resolution: 3360 × 2100 Diagonal: 13.3″ Resolution: 2560 × 1440 Diagonal: 13.3″ Resolution: 2160 × 1080 Diagonal: 13.3″ (my monitors are 15.5" and 27" diagonal, my phone is 6") Maybe I'm crazy for using my phone in landscape mode, but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to tell which of those measurements is a phone.

deleted 6y ago

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