6 ms·

The author makes the assertion that if we are all celebrating Apple's latest hardware, it is because the focus on their user interface has faded into the backgr

by raiyu 6y ago

The author makes the assertion that if we are all celebrating Apple's latest hardware, it is because the focus on their user interface has faded into the background and they have lost their way. But reading through the piece the only tangible evidence he provides is more spacing between elements that he is pulling up on 5 year old hardware? Screen density and pixels have improved dramatically in that time frame, we have larger screens, more resolution, and retina display, it's like switching from Analog to HD. Not every new interface will work equally well on old hardware, but that doesn't mean that the interface has deteriorated. Making something infinitely backwards compatible will ultimately destroy the user experience, as you can't take advantage of the present and the improvements it offers. The OS is getting a bit iOS-ified - that I agree with, but it isn't forced upon you to the level Windows does, so it is easily avoided. I would prefer to have a seen a more detailed breakout of the real degradation in user experience, otherwise it's just a complete opinion piece with no real facts or proof points to offer.

dkonofalski 6y ago
I agree. I don't disagree with the fact that the OS and UI team seem a little less focused on the polish of the entire experience but the leaps in hardware are just too great to be able to keep up appropriately in the UI. They really just need to get back to ironing out the every day things. Case in point - not being able to reply to a Message directly from the notification is a huge regression. Fix stuff like that first.
- skohan 6y ago
  > the leaps in hardware are just too great to be able to keep up appropriately in the UI Why would this be the case? Apple's a massive, well-resourced company and it seems like they should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
  - mrkstu 6y ago
    Microsoft and Windows Control Panel migration to System Settings argue its pretty difficult indeed, even for the most well-resourced companies.
    - dylan604 6y ago
      The failure of company A to manage a roll-out does not predict the failure of company B. It just goes to show how badly company A manages their resources.
      - mrkstu 6y ago
        Or, alternatively, that companies with large codebases face similar issues of complexity and legacy interactions that aren't easy to just throw people/resources at, they just take the time they take in order to get it accomplished and persistence is preferred over alacrity.
  - dkonofalski 6y ago
    This is just an opinion but I'm a big fan of Apple and have been using their machines for a long time. There are just some new conventions that have been introduced alongside hardware that add complexity that I don't think is possible to get right the first time around outside of some pretty minimum functionality. Any time an process needs to be re-thought or redefined, you're basically starting from scratch even if the end results look similar. In the example I gave, Notification Center was something that had to be ported over from iPadOS/iOS (and I'm glad it did as I find it very useful and much more consistent of an experience) but it then needed to be retro-fit to handle applications that weren't originally intended for it. It also needs to deal with notifications in a way that make them consistent so that new users pick up the basics of how it works easily. To me, that's a hard task. I just wish there was a bit more consideration taken towards keeping existing functionality in place, even if it contradicts new paradigms, but that's really a design choice that I just have to disagree with because the alternative is probably better for most people using the machines. If it's not, the analytics will bear that out and they'll change it to the one that I prefer.
- jbverschoor 6y ago
  There are many things in macOS that have not been looked at properly. That has nothing to do with hardware. It's plain sloppyness.
  - dkonofalski 6y ago
    I disagree. I think it has everything to do with hardware because the software has to work with the hardware. The teams more than likely focus on making sure new hardware works with the OS as a priority and focus on the "nice to haves" for point releases. Rosetta, for example, probably took up a large chunk of time in the latest release and that has to extend to nearly every aspect of the UI to make sure that notifications, power management, and resource management all work properly with both new and existing apps on both ARM and x64 versions.
skohan 6y ago
> Screen density and pixels have improved dramatically in that time frame, we have larger screens, more resolution, and retina display I'm typing this on a new 13" MacBook Air, and the screen is pretty small! don't know if BigSur is optimized for a 27" iMac display, but on a small laptop, I certainly feel like the decreased UI density feels like a hindrance.
- Vuska 6y ago
  One of my minor bugbears with macOS since Yosemite has been changing the green button from zoom to full screen. I just don't use full screen mode much. On my 25" displays the only application that gets kept full screen is my IDE. I don't need a dedicated button that slowly animates the window to fullscreen if I accidentally click it. Speculating here, but given that most people using a mac are looking at a 13" screen, it seems like this change was made to benefit them. And that's fair enough, but why can't there be a toggle in the system preferences to change it? macOS has some preferences like this, but they all seem to be things grandfathered in from the old days. Future updates that change things like the green button or Mission Control don't get any preferences to tweak behaviour and it's so frustrating.
  - jdlshore 6y ago
    It bugged me too. If you hold down option, you get the old behavior.
  - skohan 6y ago
    Yeah I feel like I want fullsreen almost never. Even on a 13" laptop, almost all of my workflows involve having at least two applications open and at least occasionally having both of them visible at the same time
    - coldtea 6y ago
      Which is often not the case for a writer, a video editor, an electronic musician, and many other jobs...
    - 6y ago
kome 6y ago
> "that he is pulling up on 5 year old hardware?" is a 5 year old computer old?
- JKCalhoun 6y ago
  Well there have been 5 major OS releases on said 5 year old computer. So in OS-years, yes, the computer is old. ;-)
- coldtea 6y ago
  Personal computing has existed since say 1977. Viable personal computing since 1981. GUI personal computing for the masses since 1993 or so. That's 40 years with a conservative estimate. 5 years is 12.5% of the history of personal computing. So kinda yes.
  - anthk 6y ago
    No.
- Andrex 6y ago
  I would say it's exiting middle age.
- falcolas 6y ago
  Consumer silicon components have an predicted life span of 5-7 years†. This life span gets lower the smaller we go with chip technology. So, yes, a 5 year old computer is near retirement age. † https://c3.nasa.gov/dashlink/static/media/other/ObservedFailures37.html https://c3.nasa.gov/dashlink/static/media/other/ObservedFail...
  - timw4mail 6y ago
    That's a pretty lousy estimated lifetime. If that is truly the case, it feels like planned obsolsense, as the rate of improvement in computing power has drastically slowed.
    - 6y ago
m463 6y ago
I use macos to read mail. They have been chipping away at mail bit by bit. I have always used it in what's now called "classic layout" - message list above, current message below, sidebar with accounts/mailboxes. In the message list, I could choose what columns were shown, how wide they were and in what order. I could just click on the top of a column to sort one way, click again to sort another. This would let me find all the mail today or last week in order. or group by subject. Or find everything with an attachment. or back to sorting by date with today at the bottom. What I was waiting for was smarter mail rules. maybe nested rules. Maybe smarter ways to interact (without resorting to applescript) But they dumbed it down and there's a dropdown to pick what to sort (drop twice if the order they chose was not what you expected). You cannot choose your columns. You cannot choose the order. rules have not gotten smarter and with a name like "classic layout", I figure it is one update away from gone.
- thebean11 6y ago
  The last time I tried to use the built in mail app (about a year ago?) I was met with some pretty serious bugs that made it unusable. Not to mention those smart filters didn't work. It sucks that Apple has let it get so bad, but I personally wouldn't consider Mail part of the OS. It's just a built in App like garage band or something.
- galad87 6y ago
  Yep, but fortunately they brought back the good old table view in Mail on Big Sur.
  - dreamcompiler 6y ago
    Did they fix the data loss bug? https://mjtsai.com/blog/2019/10/11/mail-data-loss-in-macos-10-15/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2019/10/11/mail-data-loss-in-macos-1...
    - galad87 6y ago
      I never experienced any data loss, I don't know.
intrasight 6y ago
I'd say that they'd never found their way. The MacOS UI sucks. I abandoned Macs years ago. I assume that it's only gotten worse since then. Of course just my humble opinion.
29083011397778 6y ago
Frankly, I'd point to where you say so yourself: > Not every new interface will work equally well on old hardware, but that doesn't mean that the interface has deteriorated. Apple is well-known for long support periods on mobile, and 5 years is not, in my eyes, an old computer that ought to be replaced. And so if the interface doesn't work as well on the authors supported hardware, then I think we can agree the interface has objectively deteriorated.

by raiyu 6y ago

dkonofalski 6y ago

I agree. I don't disagree with the fact that the OS and UI team seem a little less focused on the polish of the entire experience but the leaps in hardware are just too great to be able to keep up appropriately in the UI. They really just need to get back to ironing out the every day things. Case in point - not being able to reply to a Message directly from the notification is a huge regression. Fix stuff like that first.

skohan 6y ago
> the leaps in hardware are just too great to be able to keep up appropriately in the UI Why would this be the case? Apple's a massive, well-resourced company and it seems like they should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
- mrkstu 6y ago
  Microsoft and Windows Control Panel migration to System Settings argue its pretty difficult indeed, even for the most well-resourced companies.
  - dylan604 6y ago
    The failure of company A to manage a roll-out does not predict the failure of company B. It just goes to show how badly company A manages their resources.
    - mrkstu 6y ago
      Or, alternatively, that companies with large codebases face similar issues of complexity and legacy interactions that aren't easy to just throw people/resources at, they just take the time they take in order to get it accomplished and persistence is preferred over alacrity.
- dkonofalski 6y ago
  This is just an opinion but I'm a big fan of Apple and have been using their machines for a long time. There are just some new conventions that have been introduced alongside hardware that add complexity that I don't think is possible to get right the first time around outside of some pretty minimum functionality. Any time an process needs to be re-thought or redefined, you're basically starting from scratch even if the end results look similar. In the example I gave, Notification Center was something that had to be ported over from iPadOS/iOS (and I'm glad it did as I find it very useful and much more consistent of an experience) but it then needed to be retro-fit to handle applications that weren't originally intended for it. It also needs to deal with notifications in a way that make them consistent so that new users pick up the basics of how it works easily. To me, that's a hard task. I just wish there was a bit more consideration taken towards keeping existing functionality in place, even if it contradicts new paradigms, but that's really a design choice that I just have to disagree with because the alternative is probably better for most people using the machines. If it's not, the analytics will bear that out and they'll change it to the one that I prefer.
jbverschoor 6y ago
There are many things in macOS that have not been looked at properly. That has nothing to do with hardware. It's plain sloppyness.
- dkonofalski 6y ago
  I disagree. I think it has everything to do with hardware because the software has to work with the hardware. The teams more than likely focus on making sure new hardware works with the OS as a priority and focus on the "nice to haves" for point releases. Rosetta, for example, probably took up a large chunk of time in the latest release and that has to extend to nearly every aspect of the UI to make sure that notifications, power management, and resource management all work properly with both new and existing apps on both ARM and x64 versions.

skohan 6y ago

> Screen density and pixels have improved dramatically in that time frame, we have larger screens, more resolution, and retina display I'm typing this on a new 13" MacBook Air, and the screen is pretty small! don't know if BigSur is optimized for a 27" iMac display, but on a small laptop, I certainly feel like the decreased UI density feels like a hindrance.

Vuska 6y ago
One of my minor bugbears with macOS since Yosemite has been changing the green button from zoom to full screen. I just don't use full screen mode much. On my 25" displays the only application that gets kept full screen is my IDE. I don't need a dedicated button that slowly animates the window to fullscreen if I accidentally click it. Speculating here, but given that most people using a mac are looking at a 13" screen, it seems like this change was made to benefit them. And that's fair enough, but why can't there be a toggle in the system preferences to change it? macOS has some preferences like this, but they all seem to be things grandfathered in from the old days. Future updates that change things like the green button or Mission Control don't get any preferences to tweak behaviour and it's so frustrating.
- jdlshore 6y ago
  It bugged me too. If you hold down option, you get the old behavior.
- skohan 6y ago
  Yeah I feel like I want fullsreen almost never. Even on a 13" laptop, almost all of my workflows involve having at least two applications open and at least occasionally having both of them visible at the same time
  - coldtea 6y ago
    Which is often not the case for a writer, a video editor, an electronic musician, and many other jobs...
  - 6y ago

kome 6y ago

> "that he is pulling up on 5 year old hardware?" is a 5 year old computer old?

JKCalhoun 6y ago
Well there have been 5 major OS releases on said 5 year old computer. So in OS-years, yes, the computer is old. ;-)
coldtea 6y ago
Personal computing has existed since say 1977. Viable personal computing since 1981. GUI personal computing for the masses since 1993 or so. That's 40 years with a conservative estimate. 5 years is 12.5% of the history of personal computing. So kinda yes.
- anthk 6y ago
  No.
Andrex 6y ago
I would say it's exiting middle age.
falcolas 6y ago
Consumer silicon components have an predicted life span of 5-7 years†. This life span gets lower the smaller we go with chip technology. So, yes, a 5 year old computer is near retirement age. † https://c3.nasa.gov/dashlink/static/media/other/ObservedFailures37.html https://c3.nasa.gov/dashlink/static/media/other/ObservedFail...
- timw4mail 6y ago
  That's a pretty lousy estimated lifetime. If that is truly the case, it feels like planned obsolsense, as the rate of improvement in computing power has drastically slowed.
  - 6y ago

m463 6y ago

I use macos to read mail. They have been chipping away at mail bit by bit. I have always used it in what's now called "classic layout" - message list above, current message below, sidebar with accounts/mailboxes. In the message list, I could choose what columns were shown, how wide they were and in what order. I could just click on the top of a column to sort one way, click again to sort another. This would let me find all the mail today or last week in order. or group by subject. Or find everything with an attachment. or back to sorting by date with today at the bottom. What I was waiting for was smarter mail rules. maybe nested rules. Maybe smarter ways to interact (without resorting to applescript) But they dumbed it down and there's a dropdown to pick what to sort (drop twice if the order they chose was not what you expected). You cannot choose your columns. You cannot choose the order. rules have not gotten smarter and with a name like "classic layout", I figure it is one update away from gone.

thebean11 6y ago
The last time I tried to use the built in mail app (about a year ago?) I was met with some pretty serious bugs that made it unusable. Not to mention those smart filters didn't work. It sucks that Apple has let it get so bad, but I personally wouldn't consider Mail part of the OS. It's just a built in App like garage band or something.
galad87 6y ago
Yep, but fortunately they brought back the good old table view in Mail on Big Sur.
- dreamcompiler 6y ago
  Did they fix the data loss bug? https://mjtsai.com/blog/2019/10/11/mail-data-loss-in-macos-10-15/ https://mjtsai.com/blog/2019/10/11/mail-data-loss-in-macos-1...
  - galad87 6y ago
    I never experienced any data loss, I don't know.

intrasight 6y ago

I'd say that they'd never found their way. The MacOS UI sucks. I abandoned Macs years ago. I assume that it's only gotten worse since then. Of course just my humble opinion.

29083011397778 6y ago

Frankly, I'd point to where you say so yourself: > Not every new interface will work equally well on old hardware, but that doesn't mean that the interface has deteriorated. Apple is well-known for long support periods on mobile, and 5 years is not, in my eyes, an old computer that ought to be replaced. And so if the interface doesn't work as well on the authors supported hardware, then I think we can agree the interface has objectively deteriorated.