5 ms·

I don't understand the point about maintenance. Is Xorg maintained? If so, are the current maintainers handcuffed to it? I assume they aren't, so what's the pr

I don't understand the point about maintenance. Is Xorg maintained? If so, are the current maintainers handcuffed to it? I assume they aren't, so what's the problem? If Xorg is not maintained, again, what's the problem? Software is known to outlive its creators and maintainers. If there's a need, it will eventually get new maintainers. Software is not magic.

kevincox 6y ago
X is barely maintained anymore. To a large extent all of the X developers are working on Wayland now. A lot of people have the impression that Wayland is some outside competitor to X but the truth is that the vast majority of the people who started Wayland are long-time X developers who know its flaws inside and out.
- bluefox 6y ago
  Sure, I can understand people working on software X for a long time getting fed up with it and start working on software W. I can also understand that these people have strong opinions on why W is so much better. The only trouble is that others, who are possibly not developers of window systems, may not care, or may find that it breaks their software, or may not want to write software that depends on W and doesn't work on X. So what if Xorg is "barely maintained"? It works. Hell, as long as it works, it's likely better for it not to change. If there are issues, in the free software world we say "patches welcome". No developer should feel chained to a project.
  - arghwhat 6y ago
    There are not enough developers to even create a new release or review contributor patches. The Wayland community contributes a fair share due to xwayland, and we get stuck on this quite often. And yeah, it'll need fixes. over time. It's big, complex, and interacts with device drivers that are very much in flux.
    - bluefox 6y ago
      I'm a bit confused about your post. Why would Xorg users care about XWayland, or new releases or contributor patches? Those who contribute to Xorg and feel stuck could step up to maintain it, if they wish. (Don't they do it already?) If they don't wish to maintain it, maybe their contributions are a waste of everyone's time? (Then again, maybe they get paid to do it, in which case it's their money-misery trade-off to make.) Over time, Xorg users may indeed need fixes. Then, I'm sure someone will step up.
      - arghwhat 6y ago
        > Why would Xorg users care about XWayland XWayland is Xorg. An Xwayland fix is an Xorg fix. An Xwayland bug is an Xorg bug. > Those who contribute to Xorg and feel stuck could step up to maintain it, if they wish. (Don't they do it already?) No one maintains Xorg anymore, so there is no one to review patches, merge and roll new releases with them. There's a huge difference between wanting to fix a bit and becoming an upstream maintainer. The maintainers left for good reason, and no one wants to be stuck with that turd. > Then, I'm sure someone will step up. It is not "over time", it is now or never.
        bluefox 6y ago
        Welp, as a user of Xorg I'm fine with what I have. You seem to be playing on both senses of Xwayland both being Xorg and not being Xorg, but Xwayland will continue to be irrelevant to me. You say "now or never" but I've no idea what you're talking about. Your reply makes zero sense. If there's any trouble in the future, I'm sure someone will step up, as I said.
        arghwhat 6y ago
        You have no idea what I am talking about because you don't engage with upstream Xorg and seem stuck in a "works on my machine" fallacy. Your attitude to the problem is a big contributor to Xorg upstreams demise. The biggest is, of course, that none of the maintainers wanted to deal with that dumpster fire anymore and jumped ship, and no one in the know is dumb enough to pick up the torch. But, a delusioned userbase is very unhelpful in recruiting new blood.

kevincox 6y ago

X is barely maintained anymore. To a large extent all of the X developers are working on Wayland now. A lot of people have the impression that Wayland is some outside competitor to X but the truth is that the vast majority of the people who started Wayland are long-time X developers who know its flaws inside and out.

bluefox 6y ago
Sure, I can understand people working on software X for a long time getting fed up with it and start working on software W. I can also understand that these people have strong opinions on why W is so much better. The only trouble is that others, who are possibly not developers of window systems, may not care, or may find that it breaks their software, or may not want to write software that depends on W and doesn't work on X. So what if Xorg is "barely maintained"? It works. Hell, as long as it works, it's likely better for it not to change. If there are issues, in the free software world we say "patches welcome". No developer should feel chained to a project.
- arghwhat 6y ago
  There are not enough developers to even create a new release or review contributor patches. The Wayland community contributes a fair share due to xwayland, and we get stuck on this quite often. And yeah, it'll need fixes. over time. It's big, complex, and interacts with device drivers that are very much in flux.
  - bluefox 6y ago
    I'm a bit confused about your post. Why would Xorg users care about XWayland, or new releases or contributor patches? Those who contribute to Xorg and feel stuck could step up to maintain it, if they wish. (Don't they do it already?) If they don't wish to maintain it, maybe their contributions are a waste of everyone's time? (Then again, maybe they get paid to do it, in which case it's their money-misery trade-off to make.) Over time, Xorg users may indeed need fixes. Then, I'm sure someone will step up.
    - arghwhat 6y ago
      > Why would Xorg users care about XWayland XWayland is Xorg. An Xwayland fix is an Xorg fix. An Xwayland bug is an Xorg bug. > Those who contribute to Xorg and feel stuck could step up to maintain it, if they wish. (Don't they do it already?) No one maintains Xorg anymore, so there is no one to review patches, merge and roll new releases with them. There's a huge difference between wanting to fix a bit and becoming an upstream maintainer. The maintainers left for good reason, and no one wants to be stuck with that turd. > Then, I'm sure someone will step up. It is not "over time", it is now or never.
      - bluefox 6y ago
        Welp, as a user of Xorg I'm fine with what I have. You seem to be playing on both senses of Xwayland both being Xorg and not being Xorg, but Xwayland will continue to be irrelevant to me. You say "now or never" but I've no idea what you're talking about. Your reply makes zero sense. If there's any trouble in the future, I'm sure someone will step up, as I said.
        arghwhat 6y ago
        You have no idea what I am talking about because you don't engage with upstream Xorg and seem stuck in a "works on my machine" fallacy. Your attitude to the problem is a big contributor to Xorg upstreams demise. The biggest is, of course, that none of the maintainers wanted to deal with that dumpster fire anymore and jumped ship, and no one in the know is dumb enough to pick up the torch. But, a delusioned userbase is very unhelpful in recruiting new blood.