12 ms·

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland d

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of it. And I'm completely fine with that, I'll keep using Xorg and you can give me a call when my "precious use-case" is handled.

creata 6y ago
If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dleslie 6y ago
  Emacs
  - tsujp 6y ago
    Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26002420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26002420
  - ahendriksen 6y ago
    Emacs works perfectly fine under xwayland. The recent pgtk feature branch does not use X anymore under wayland. What is not working for you?
    - dleslie 6y ago
      Yes, when Wayland acts like X then X apps sometimes work. In the process you abandon the security and performance features of Wayland. Getting xwayland working is another story. I can't seem to get it to work at all on my PinePhone; but to Wayland's credit, the phone crashes for all sorts of reasons.
      - arghwhat 6y ago
        Yeah, Wayland needs to act like X when using a pure X application. But emacs X/"gtk" frontend has been controversial for a few reasons, with work having been under way for quite a while for a new frontend, somewhat unrelated to Wayland. Xwayland not working on pinephone is ironically primarily an X problem, as Xwayland is just xorg-server compiled with only the Wayland backend enabled. And, as there are little to no xorg developers, fixing xorg is proving tricky as there is no one to make a new xorg release...
      - kaba0 6y ago
        Why would you abandon the security of wayland by an xwayland app? It only sees at most other xwayland apps. As for the pinephone part, I may not understand your point about “to Wayland’s credit”, do you think stability issues on the pinephone is due to wayland?
        dleslie 6y ago
        The PinePhone has unstable hardware, it doesn't matter if I run X or Wayland and it doesn't matter what distribution I use. I can't keep it operating for more than 5 minutes before the screen goes to blank and/or it gets stuck in an endless reboot cycle that requires removing the battery to halt.
        kaba0 6y ago
        Which distro? I have one as well and at least under mobian , while it is really far from stable, it works. But reboot cycles sound like a hardware bug rather than unstable hardware.
        dleslie 6y ago
        I've tried: Ubuntu Touch Mobian (phosh) PostmarketOS (sxmo, phosh) Manjaro (Phosh, Plasma and Lomiri) And multiple release versions of each; using multiple different sdcards as well as the on-board memory. The only OS that doesn't exhibit the reboot/black-screen issues for me is the one used to allow flashing of the device over USB. The factory test software works, all of the different OS variants; so if there is a hardware issue the factory test software isn't able to detect it. Notably, I've left the test software running without issue. I've even tried turning off all the hardware dip switches.
    - one_comment 6y ago
      The note "segfaults on multiple displays" in the readme made me stay away from that.
      - ahendriksen 6y ago
        I have been plugging and unplugging multiple displays into my laptop since March. Usually I have emacs running locally (xwayland) and an emacsclient over X11 to a remote server. I have not experienced any issues so far. Maybe the readme is too conservative in this regard?
  - striking 6y ago
    Someone is working on that: https://github.com/masm11/emacs https://github.com/masm11/emacs
- BoysenberryPi 6y ago
  No problem, the biggest ones I tried were Godot, Krita, and Steam. Godot does not run on Wayland although support seems to be planned somewhere down the pipeline. Krita "runs" on Wayland but a lot of the features do not work nor does pen support last time I checked. Steam just doesn't work. Edit: A commenter on this thread mentioned Emacs. I have not tried that as I have recently switched to Emacs but if that is true then that would also be a big one for me.
  - mondoshawan 6y ago
    On my ASUS PN50 APU, Steam works fine in wayland, even in big picture mode. Input, however, is another (sad) story.
  - fullstop 6y ago
    I have a Linux PC that my kids mostly use, running Wayland sessions. It definitely works with Steam and Krita, although I admit that I do not know if all of Krita's features work. They have played Portal 2, Minecraft, and a few "windows-only" games with Proton. My biggest gripe is that if you have more than one window of Chrome open it gets VERY slow. Multiple tabs are good, multiple windows are not.
    - whatshisface 6y ago
      >Multiple tabs are good, multiple windows are not. "It's a perfect compositor, as long as it is not expected to composite." ;) Personally I need the ability to open a remote window on my desktop, fingers crossed that someone will add that.
      - fullstop 6y ago
        I'm pretty sure that it's a bug in Chrome / Chromium since other applications are just fine even when Chrome is being dog slow.
        roel_v 6y ago
        If every other compositor/desktop system/whatever it is, is running fine, but not with Wayland, then how is it a Chrome 'bug'?
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  It's a couple of years old, but this post on "Why I'm not going to switch to Wayland yet."[1] summarizes some of the concerns I have about switching to Wayland: "at the moment there are several types of applications that not only don't work in wayland, but would be very difficult, or impossible to work natively in all major wayland compositors. Examples (in order of importance to me): * Programmatic output configuration (xrandr, arandr, etc.) * CLI clipboard access (xsel, xclip) * Third party app launcher/window switcher (rofi, dmenu, albert, docky). * Clipboard managers (parcellite, klipper, Gpaste, clipman, etc.) * Third party screen shot/capture/share (shutter, OBS, ffmpeg, import, peek, scrot, VNC, etc.) * Color picker (gpick, gcolor3, kcolorchooser) * xdotool Until Wayland has all these (and more) and they are as stable and feature-rich as the existing apps on X, I will not willingly switch to Wayland. PS: ydotool has been touted as an equivalent of xdotool, but ydotool has only a tiny fraction of the features of xdotool. And it's unlikely that it'll get much better any time soon, as its README says: "Since Jun, 2019, I have little time to maintain this project" wtype is supposed to be another equivalent to xdotool, but it has even less features than ydotool. If the rest of Wayland's X equivalents as feature poor as these, I don't hold out much hope for Wayland in the near future. [1] - https://old.reddit.com/r/wayland/comments/85q78y/why_im_not_going_to_switch_to_wayland_yet/ https://old.reddit.com/r/wayland/comments/85q78y/why_im_not_...
  - popcornarsonist 6y ago
    * It's not exactly the same, but I use Kanshi for dynamic output configuration. https://github.com/emersion/kanshi * https://github.com/bugaevc/wl-clipboard * https://hg.sr.ht/~scoopta/wofi * https://github.com/yory8/clipman * There's wlrobs for OBS. There's grim/slurp/wl-recorder for use outside of OBS. * You can use grim to grab a particular color on the screen, but the UI wouldn't be as good, of course.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- pmarin 6y ago
  xeyes https://blogs.gnome.org/wjjt/2012/03/14/looking-around-wayland/ https://blogs.gnome.org/wjjt/2012/03/14/looking-around-wayla...
arghwhat 6y ago
And there is nothing wrong with that in the slightest. No hate, just a practical problem being solved. No one is forcing you to shift prematurely, although assistance is always welcome to fix your usecase.
dleslie 6y ago
Hell, Emacs doesn't work in Wayland.
- tyingq 6y ago
  Ah, but that is so niche that it's precious :)
- ubercow13 6y ago
  Have you tried the Wayland port? (https://github.com/masm11/emacs https://github.com/masm11/emacs :)
- tsujp 6y ago
  That's not strictly correct. Give the `feature/pgtk` branch from upstream a try, `make` it yourself unless your distro has a binary for it -- that (`make`'d myself) worked for me on Void Linux. There are also a few forks on GitHub with native wayland patches out there too if `feature/pgtk` doesn't.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - zests 6y ago
    I'm already on 28.x/native comp. Is this branch really tested and working well enough without any performance regressions? I read the LWN article about this branch and it did not increase my confidence.
- skratlo 6y ago
  Hell does, and way better than on Xorg, less latency. Why do your spread lies? There's a pgtk and native-comp branch.
adkadskhj 6y ago
Yea i'm confused by this line. I'm a Linux-desktop-noob, but i was going to use i3-Wayland, aka Sway, and because i have an Nvidia i was told don't bother. Nvidia Drivers + Wayland sound broken? Now that may not be true.. but it seemed clear cut. I wanted to try Wayland really bad because i have a multi-DPI monitor setup, and Xorg is awful at that. Yet, it seemed too early. Nvidia isn't exactly some niche product. Not exactly a "Precious use-case".
- robert_foss 6y ago
  NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does. Wayland is 10 years old, and extremely stable. If it isn't working properly it's either your driver vendor or your desktop environment that is to blame.
  - adkadskhj 6y ago
    Sure, i'm willing to accept that - but is your solution for me to buy a new graphics card? How much of the market share is Nvidia? A stupid quick search's top result says 80%. So 80% of PCs can't run Wayland? To be clear, i know nothing of compositors/etc, I've had nothing but problems with Xorg, and i want to use Wayland. _and yet_ - it seems like there is not a single PC in my house, or any of my family, that can run Wayland. I'm happy to accept your statement of where the blame lies. But if you're telling me Nvidia can't run Wayland currently.. does it matter to the end user? When "Most PCs" can't run Wayland his statement of "precious use-case" seems off base.
    - robert_foss 6y ago
      You can run Wayland on NVidia drivers, but then your desktop environment has to support EGLStreams, which isn't a requirement for any other drivers and as such isn't implemented in all DEs.
    - Conan_Kudo 6y ago
      > How much of the market share is Nvidia? A stupid quick search's top result says 80%. So 80% of PCs can't run Wayland? No. 80% of PCs cannot run Sway. Both Mutter (GNOME) and KWin (KDE Plasma) implement support for EGLStreams for the Nvidia driver. However, EGLStreams itself is inherently quirky and kind of broken, per Nvidia themselves. They're working on moving to DMA-BUF to fix this, and at least on the KDE side, are committing to replacing the implementation in KWin to use that once the driver is updated to use it.
znpy 6y ago
that's imho the core problem with wayland advocates: - if you rely on something that doesn't currently work on wayland and you write about it on (for example) hacker news then you're the asshole and you should be dropping that something and switch to wayland (which of course, most of us cannot do) - if your current setup works and you'd rater spend your time doing your stuff instead of rebuilding on wayland, you're an asshole rinse and repeat. Most wayland advocates can't seem to understand the philosopy of "I don't really care about xorg vs wayland, my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me, i'll switch when I can be equally productive on wayland".
- ohgodplsno 6y ago
  Let's be honest, most wayland advocates do not give a single shit about people sticking on xorg. They might care a little bit more when their only interactions are with snarky people going "sO yOu StILl CaN'T tAKe ScReEnShOts oN wAyLaNd haHaHa sHiTtY sOftWare", or legitimate assholes.
- vetinari 6y ago
  > ost wayland advocates can't seem to understand the philosopy of "I don't really care about xorg vs wayland, my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me, i'll switch when I can be equally productive on wayland". Because usually the part "my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me" is not true. It will be said, when it comes to wayland, and they don't want to switch... but once hidpi or mixed-dpi displays or reliable screen-lock or something other comes on topic, then suddenly "linux" (not xorg, but linux) is behind the times, doesn't work out of the box as other systems do and requires hours and hours of configuring. That's the "my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me" in the full glory.
  - znpy 6y ago
    >>> most wayland advocates can't seem to understand the philosopy of "I don't really care about xorg vs wayland, my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me, i'll switch when I can be equally productive on wayland". > Because usually the part "my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me" is not true. case in point. What do you know about my current setup for example? it works remarkably well for me. Stop making the whole wayland thing look like a bunch of annoying people.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tubularhells 6y ago
Fellow game dev here. What breaks do you have? Just wondering.

creata 6y ago

If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dleslie 6y ago
Emacs
- tsujp 6y ago
  Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26002420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26002420
- ahendriksen 6y ago
  Emacs works perfectly fine under xwayland. The recent pgtk feature branch does not use X anymore under wayland. What is not working for you?
  - dleslie 6y ago
    Yes, when Wayland acts like X then X apps sometimes work. In the process you abandon the security and performance features of Wayland. Getting xwayland working is another story. I can't seem to get it to work at all on my PinePhone; but to Wayland's credit, the phone crashes for all sorts of reasons.
    - arghwhat 6y ago
      Yeah, Wayland needs to act like X when using a pure X application. But emacs X/"gtk" frontend has been controversial for a few reasons, with work having been under way for quite a while for a new frontend, somewhat unrelated to Wayland. Xwayland not working on pinephone is ironically primarily an X problem, as Xwayland is just xorg-server compiled with only the Wayland backend enabled. And, as there are little to no xorg developers, fixing xorg is proving tricky as there is no one to make a new xorg release...
    - kaba0 6y ago
      Why would you abandon the security of wayland by an xwayland app? It only sees at most other xwayland apps. As for the pinephone part, I may not understand your point about “to Wayland’s credit”, do you think stability issues on the pinephone is due to wayland?
      - dleslie 6y ago
        The PinePhone has unstable hardware, it doesn't matter if I run X or Wayland and it doesn't matter what distribution I use. I can't keep it operating for more than 5 minutes before the screen goes to blank and/or it gets stuck in an endless reboot cycle that requires removing the battery to halt.
        kaba0 6y ago
        Which distro? I have one as well and at least under mobian , while it is really far from stable, it works. But reboot cycles sound like a hardware bug rather than unstable hardware.
        dleslie 6y ago
        I've tried: Ubuntu Touch Mobian (phosh) PostmarketOS (sxmo, phosh) Manjaro (Phosh, Plasma and Lomiri) And multiple release versions of each; using multiple different sdcards as well as the on-board memory. The only OS that doesn't exhibit the reboot/black-screen issues for me is the one used to allow flashing of the device over USB. The factory test software works, all of the different OS variants; so if there is a hardware issue the factory test software isn't able to detect it. Notably, I've left the test software running without issue. I've even tried turning off all the hardware dip switches.
  - one_comment 6y ago
    The note "segfaults on multiple displays" in the readme made me stay away from that.
    - ahendriksen 6y ago
      I have been plugging and unplugging multiple displays into my laptop since March. Usually I have emacs running locally (xwayland) and an emacsclient over X11 to a remote server. I have not experienced any issues so far. Maybe the readme is too conservative in this regard?
- striking 6y ago
  Someone is working on that: https://github.com/masm11/emacs https://github.com/masm11/emacs
BoysenberryPi 6y ago
No problem, the biggest ones I tried were Godot, Krita, and Steam. Godot does not run on Wayland although support seems to be planned somewhere down the pipeline. Krita "runs" on Wayland but a lot of the features do not work nor does pen support last time I checked. Steam just doesn't work. Edit: A commenter on this thread mentioned Emacs. I have not tried that as I have recently switched to Emacs but if that is true then that would also be a big one for me.
- mondoshawan 6y ago
  On my ASUS PN50 APU, Steam works fine in wayland, even in big picture mode. Input, however, is another (sad) story.
- fullstop 6y ago
  I have a Linux PC that my kids mostly use, running Wayland sessions. It definitely works with Steam and Krita, although I admit that I do not know if all of Krita's features work. They have played Portal 2, Minecraft, and a few "windows-only" games with Proton. My biggest gripe is that if you have more than one window of Chrome open it gets VERY slow. Multiple tabs are good, multiple windows are not.
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    >Multiple tabs are good, multiple windows are not. "It's a perfect compositor, as long as it is not expected to composite." ;) Personally I need the ability to open a remote window on my desktop, fingers crossed that someone will add that.
    - fullstop 6y ago
      I'm pretty sure that it's a bug in Chrome / Chromium since other applications are just fine even when Chrome is being dog slow.
      - roel_v 6y ago
        If every other compositor/desktop system/whatever it is, is running fine, but not with Wayland, then how is it a Chrome 'bug'?
pmoriarty 6y ago
It's a couple of years old, but this post on "Why I'm not going to switch to Wayland yet."[1] summarizes some of the concerns I have about switching to Wayland: "at the moment there are several types of applications that not only don't work in wayland, but would be very difficult, or impossible to work natively in all major wayland compositors. Examples (in order of importance to me): * Programmatic output configuration (xrandr, arandr, etc.) * CLI clipboard access (xsel, xclip) * Third party app launcher/window switcher (rofi, dmenu, albert, docky). * Clipboard managers (parcellite, klipper, Gpaste, clipman, etc.) * Third party screen shot/capture/share (shutter, OBS, ffmpeg, import, peek, scrot, VNC, etc.) * Color picker (gpick, gcolor3, kcolorchooser) * xdotool Until Wayland has all these (and more) and they are as stable and feature-rich as the existing apps on X, I will not willingly switch to Wayland. PS: ydotool has been touted as an equivalent of xdotool, but ydotool has only a tiny fraction of the features of xdotool. And it's unlikely that it'll get much better any time soon, as its README says: "Since Jun, 2019, I have little time to maintain this project" wtype is supposed to be another equivalent to xdotool, but it has even less features than ydotool. If the rest of Wayland's X equivalents as feature poor as these, I don't hold out much hope for Wayland in the near future. [1] - https://old.reddit.com/r/wayland/comments/85q78y/why_im_not_going_to_switch_to_wayland_yet/ https://old.reddit.com/r/wayland/comments/85q78y/why_im_not_...
- popcornarsonist 6y ago
  * It's not exactly the same, but I use Kanshi for dynamic output configuration. https://github.com/emersion/kanshi * https://github.com/bugaevc/wl-clipboard * https://hg.sr.ht/~scoopta/wofi * https://github.com/yory8/clipman * There's wlrobs for OBS. There's grim/slurp/wl-recorder for use outside of OBS. * You can use grim to grab a particular color on the screen, but the UI wouldn't be as good, of course.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
pmarin 6y ago
xeyes https://blogs.gnome.org/wjjt/2012/03/14/looking-around-wayland/ https://blogs.gnome.org/wjjt/2012/03/14/looking-around-wayla...

arghwhat 6y ago

And there is nothing wrong with that in the slightest. No hate, just a practical problem being solved. No one is forcing you to shift prematurely, although assistance is always welcome to fix your usecase.

dleslie 6y ago

Hell, Emacs doesn't work in Wayland.

tyingq 6y ago
Ah, but that is so niche that it's precious :)
ubercow13 6y ago
Have you tried the Wayland port? (https://github.com/masm11/emacs https://github.com/masm11/emacs :)
tsujp 6y ago
That's not strictly correct. Give the `feature/pgtk` branch from upstream a try, `make` it yourself unless your distro has a binary for it -- that (`make`'d myself) worked for me on Void Linux. There are also a few forks on GitHub with native wayland patches out there too if `feature/pgtk` doesn't.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- zests 6y ago
  I'm already on 28.x/native comp. Is this branch really tested and working well enough without any performance regressions? I read the LWN article about this branch and it did not increase my confidence.
skratlo 6y ago
Hell does, and way better than on Xorg, less latency. Why do your spread lies? There's a pgtk and native-comp branch.

adkadskhj 6y ago

Yea i'm confused by this line. I'm a Linux-desktop-noob, but i was going to use i3-Wayland, aka Sway, and because i have an Nvidia i was told don't bother. Nvidia Drivers + Wayland sound broken? Now that may not be true.. but it seemed clear cut. I wanted to try Wayland really bad because i have a multi-DPI monitor setup, and Xorg is awful at that. Yet, it seemed too early. Nvidia isn't exactly some niche product. Not exactly a "Precious use-case".

robert_foss 6y ago
NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does. Wayland is 10 years old, and extremely stable. If it isn't working properly it's either your driver vendor or your desktop environment that is to blame.
- adkadskhj 6y ago
  Sure, i'm willing to accept that - but is your solution for me to buy a new graphics card? How much of the market share is Nvidia? A stupid quick search's top result says 80%. So 80% of PCs can't run Wayland? To be clear, i know nothing of compositors/etc, I've had nothing but problems with Xorg, and i want to use Wayland. _and yet_ - it seems like there is not a single PC in my house, or any of my family, that can run Wayland. I'm happy to accept your statement of where the blame lies. But if you're telling me Nvidia can't run Wayland currently.. does it matter to the end user? When "Most PCs" can't run Wayland his statement of "precious use-case" seems off base.
  - robert_foss 6y ago
    You can run Wayland on NVidia drivers, but then your desktop environment has to support EGLStreams, which isn't a requirement for any other drivers and as such isn't implemented in all DEs.
  - Conan_Kudo 6y ago
    > How much of the market share is Nvidia? A stupid quick search's top result says 80%. So 80% of PCs can't run Wayland? No. 80% of PCs cannot run Sway. Both Mutter (GNOME) and KWin (KDE Plasma) implement support for EGLStreams for the Nvidia driver. However, EGLStreams itself is inherently quirky and kind of broken, per Nvidia themselves. They're working on moving to DMA-BUF to fix this, and at least on the KDE side, are committing to replacing the implementation in KWin to use that once the driver is updated to use it.

znpy 6y ago

that's imho the core problem with wayland advocates: - if you rely on something that doesn't currently work on wayland and you write about it on (for example) hacker news then you're the asshole and you should be dropping that something and switch to wayland (which of course, most of us cannot do) - if your current setup works and you'd rater spend your time doing your stuff instead of rebuilding on wayland, you're an asshole rinse and repeat. Most wayland advocates can't seem to understand the philosopy of "I don't really care about xorg vs wayland, my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me, i'll switch when I can be equally productive on wayland".

ohgodplsno 6y ago
Let's be honest, most wayland advocates do not give a single shit about people sticking on xorg. They might care a little bit more when their only interactions are with snarky people going "sO yOu StILl CaN'T tAKe ScReEnShOts oN wAyLaNd haHaHa sHiTtY sOftWare", or legitimate assholes.
vetinari 6y ago
> ost wayland advocates can't seem to understand the philosopy of "I don't really care about xorg vs wayland, my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me, i'll switch when I can be equally productive on wayland". Because usually the part "my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me" is not true. It will be said, when it comes to wayland, and they don't want to switch... but once hidpi or mixed-dpi displays or reliable screen-lock or something other comes on topic, then suddenly "linux" (not xorg, but linux) is behind the times, doesn't work out of the box as other systems do and requires hours and hours of configuring. That's the "my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me" in the full glory.
- znpy 6y ago
  >>> most wayland advocates can't seem to understand the philosopy of "I don't really care about xorg vs wayland, my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me, i'll switch when I can be equally productive on wayland". > Because usually the part "my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me" is not true. case in point. What do you know about my current setup for example? it works remarkably well for me. Stop making the whole wayland thing look like a bunch of annoying people.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

tubularhells 6y ago

Fellow game dev here. What breaks do you have? Just wondering.