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1. In the case of Christianity (those theistic beliefs which believe Jesus is God in the flesh), it makes a pretty bold claim (i.e. that a human physically came

1. In the case of Christianity (those theistic beliefs which believe Jesus is God in the flesh), it makes a pretty bold claim (i.e. that a human physically came back from the dead) which, if true, is remarkable regardless of faith tradition. It is more difficult to verify the claim now, but eyewitness accounts still exist and can be cross-examined. Interestingly, there are accounts of Jesus' miracles from non-believers as well, who generally believed they were Egyptian magic due to Jesus having spent his early years in Egypt, which has long had a reputation as a land of magic. But the point is, Christianity makes certain assertions about things that it claims historically happened which can be verified or falsified, which is pretty great as belief systems go. I have no particular defense in hand for other theistic beliefs, though. 2. Yes, because "good" is subjective, and the context of our understanding is limited. Someone might believe it is generally good to be tolerant. Others might believe it is good to be intolerant of things which bring about long-term (usually spiritual) harm even if they seem immediately harmless. Supposing we grant that an omniscient benevolent creator god exists and that this god has told us how to live, it stands to reason that those instructions would be of more value than trying to figure things out for ourselves, because we're not omniscient.

tgflynn 6y ago
> it makes a pretty bold claim (i.e. that a human physically came back from the dead) which, if true, is remarkable regardless of faith tradition It is not terribly uncommon for humans who were thought to be dead to later exhibit signs of life. This occasionally happens even today. In the 19th century some people were so afraid of being buried alive that they had alarm systems installed in their tombs. Two thousand years ago when medical knowledge was much less advanced such events were probably even more common. > Interestingly, there are accounts of Jesus' miracles from non-believers as well, who generally believed they were Egyptian magic due to Jesus having spent his early years in Egypt, which has long had a reputation as a land of magic. To what accounts are you referring ? To my knowledge the only approximately contemporary mention of Jesus in a non-christian text is a passage from Josephus, the authenticity of which is highly contested among historians. That passage notes that Jesus performed "surprising deeds" but makes no mention of Egyptian magic. I would also note that there are numerous claims throughout history of miracle workers from many different religious traditions.
- indigochill 6y ago
  > It is not terribly uncommon for humans who were thought to be dead to later exhibit signs of life. That's true, though the separation of "blood and water" when Jesus' side was pierced is usually used as evidence he was really dead. > To what accounts are you referring ? I misremembered. The specific account I was thinking of was Celsus, as preserved in Origen's "Against Celsus", but the account was 2nd century. As for the Egyptian magic bit, Celsus said Jesus "...was brought up in secret and hired himself out as a workman in Egypt, and after having tried his hand at certain magical powers he returned from there, and on account of those powers gave himself the title of God."
bildung 6y ago
The idea of a dying and rising god is very common for the line of near eastern religions christianity emerged from. This also means that the scholars whose texts we now have as sources were most probably accustomed to the idea. Them reiterating christian assertions thus is mostly just proof that they were accustomed to the then-prevalent belief systems. Other traits of christian beliefs also mirror other near eastern religions. Have a look at e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism - Zoroaster is the prophet receiving commandments directly from the good god, you also have a bad god seducing people, you have heaven and hell, and where one lands after death is a result of listening to the commandments or giving in to the seductions.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> It is more difficult to verify the claim now, but eyewitness accounts still exist No, they don't. “Writings which were once widely considered to be eyewitness accounts but are today, even by most Christians, considered to be at best written multiple generations removed from the time at which any eyewitnesses lived and to have evolved from earlier accounts” exist. > and can be cross-examined No, neither they eyewitnesses (if any) nor the actual authors of the accounts (who, at least, clearly exist) can be cross-examined. > Interestingly, there are accounts of Jesus' miracles from non-believers as well The surviving accounts also aren't even purportedly first hand, a s often are much later writings based on lost originals that also couldn't be first hand accounts, and, yeah, we Christians aren't the only ones in history who have adapted and incorporated someone else’s mythology.
tim333 6y ago
>pretty bold claim (i.e. that a human physically came back from the dead) I was brought up Christian and put that in the no evidence either way category. But then it turned out that >Horus, like Jesus -- or Jesus, like Horus -- was born of a virgin, had twelve disciples, walked on water, delivered a 'sermon on the mount', performed mircles, was executed beside two thieves, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Horus being a popular belief centuries earlier. And so now I think they probably plagiarized the story rather.

tgflynn 6y ago

> it makes a pretty bold claim (i.e. that a human physically came back from the dead) which, if true, is remarkable regardless of faith tradition It is not terribly uncommon for humans who were thought to be dead to later exhibit signs of life. This occasionally happens even today. In the 19th century some people were so afraid of being buried alive that they had alarm systems installed in their tombs. Two thousand years ago when medical knowledge was much less advanced such events were probably even more common. > Interestingly, there are accounts of Jesus' miracles from non-believers as well, who generally believed they were Egyptian magic due to Jesus having spent his early years in Egypt, which has long had a reputation as a land of magic. To what accounts are you referring ? To my knowledge the only approximately contemporary mention of Jesus in a non-christian text is a passage from Josephus, the authenticity of which is highly contested among historians. That passage notes that Jesus performed "surprising deeds" but makes no mention of Egyptian magic. I would also note that there are numerous claims throughout history of miracle workers from many different religious traditions.

indigochill 6y ago
> It is not terribly uncommon for humans who were thought to be dead to later exhibit signs of life. That's true, though the separation of "blood and water" when Jesus' side was pierced is usually used as evidence he was really dead. > To what accounts are you referring ? I misremembered. The specific account I was thinking of was Celsus, as preserved in Origen's "Against Celsus", but the account was 2nd century. As for the Egyptian magic bit, Celsus said Jesus "...was brought up in secret and hired himself out as a workman in Egypt, and after having tried his hand at certain magical powers he returned from there, and on account of those powers gave himself the title of God."

bildung 6y ago

The idea of a dying and rising god is very common for the line of near eastern religions christianity emerged from. This also means that the scholars whose texts we now have as sources were most probably accustomed to the idea. Them reiterating christian assertions thus is mostly just proof that they were accustomed to the then-prevalent belief systems. Other traits of christian beliefs also mirror other near eastern religions. Have a look at e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism - Zoroaster is the prophet receiving commandments directly from the good god, you also have a bad god seducing people, you have heaven and hell, and where one lands after death is a result of listening to the commandments or giving in to the seductions.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> It is more difficult to verify the claim now, but eyewitness accounts still exist No, they don't. “Writings which were once widely considered to be eyewitness accounts but are today, even by most Christians, considered to be at best written multiple generations removed from the time at which any eyewitnesses lived and to have evolved from earlier accounts” exist. > and can be cross-examined No, neither they eyewitnesses (if any) nor the actual authors of the accounts (who, at least, clearly exist) can be cross-examined. > Interestingly, there are accounts of Jesus' miracles from non-believers as well The surviving accounts also aren't even purportedly first hand, a s often are much later writings based on lost originals that also couldn't be first hand accounts, and, yeah, we Christians aren't the only ones in history who have adapted and incorporated someone else’s mythology.

tim333 6y ago

>pretty bold claim (i.e. that a human physically came back from the dead) I was brought up Christian and put that in the no evidence either way category. But then it turned out that >Horus, like Jesus -- or Jesus, like Horus -- was born of a virgin, had twelve disciples, walked on water, delivered a 'sermon on the mount', performed mircles, was executed beside two thieves, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Horus being a popular belief centuries earlier. And so now I think they probably plagiarized the story rather.