4 ms·

Indeed, my admittedly simplistic argument is: If your faith is the true one out of all others, why does it demand its adherents give it money and power? If it w

by dwater 6y ago

Indeed, my admittedly simplistic argument is: If your faith is the true one out of all others, why does it demand its adherents give it money and power? If it was the true faith wouldn't that be enough to drown out the rest? Doesn't that money and power corrupt the faith rather than enrich it?

tines 6y ago
Yes, great point. If you're not a Christian, then you're one more data point in my collection that shows that unbelievers understand Christianity better than most people who call themselves a Christian. Biblical Christianity looks very little like the modern religion we know by the same name today.
jawns 6y ago
Have you ever looked at the annual budget of a church? I'm a member of a typical Catholic parish in the U.S., and every year the pastor includes the budget in a letter he sends to every registered parishioner, for transparency. There are expenses to keep the lights on. A small number of staff receive modest salaries. There's a fund for capital expenses. And if the parish manages to do more than break even, guess where the rest goes? To help the poor and disadvantaged. Parishioners are encouraged to share their money and time to support the poor in other ways, as well. There are regular collections for those causes. I'm sure there is some level of corruption and embezzlement across the church globally, just as there is in just about any large institution, but I'd say that in terms of bringing in money, the vast majority of parishes and dioceses are just trying to get by, and to serve their communities when they can. The image of the Catholic Church being some vast, obscenely wealthy, powerful organization is good for the Da Vinci Code but doesn't really jibe with reality. The Vatican, whose annual budget is about five times smaller than that of Cleveland, rarely has revenue that exceeds its operating expenses.
- tck42 6y ago
  Are these budgets available online, or at least at the ask to the public? Since they're not paying taxes, I think they should be. If not, then who exactly is it transparent to? The church across the street from my house is large and I'm sure heating and upkeep is no small chunk of change. A good portion of the cars parked in the reserved row (staff) are nicer than mine, so I'm guessing the salary isn't necessarily "modest".
- myWindoonn 6y ago
  Have you ever looked at the annual expenditures of the entire Church [0]? Most of their income comes from interest on investments, and they manage their money well enough to cover their entire operating expenses and make a tidy profit which stays within the Church. The story that the Church donates most of its money "to help the poor and disadvantaged" is a reassurance which is meant to paper over the fact that the Church is not a very transparent organization. In terms of bringing in money, the vast majority of parishes and dioceses are on Church-owned land and have some sort of tax benefit or writeoff. This makes them far more stable than their surrounding community members, and somewhat ruins the image of the humble parish priest simply trying to spread the Good Word; his employer is certainly not humble in wealth. [0] http://www.ior.va/content/dam/ior/documenti/rapporto-annuale/IOR_AnnualReport_EN_2014.pdf http://www.ior.va/content/dam/ior/documenti/rapporto-annuale...
  - jawns 6y ago
    You are mistaken that the IOR represents the annual expenses/income of the church, or even a large part of it. The IOR is a bank that provides financial services to Catholic institutions, such as religious communities and Vatican offices. When money is held, it's put in very low-risk, liquid investment accounts, such as government bonds. The clients of IOR use it so they can carry out religious and charitable operations worldwide.

by dwater 6y ago

tines 6y ago

Yes, great point. If you're not a Christian, then you're one more data point in my collection that shows that unbelievers understand Christianity better than most people who call themselves a Christian. Biblical Christianity looks very little like the modern religion we know by the same name today.

jawns 6y ago

Have you ever looked at the annual budget of a church? I'm a member of a typical Catholic parish in the U.S., and every year the pastor includes the budget in a letter he sends to every registered parishioner, for transparency. There are expenses to keep the lights on. A small number of staff receive modest salaries. There's a fund for capital expenses. And if the parish manages to do more than break even, guess where the rest goes? To help the poor and disadvantaged. Parishioners are encouraged to share their money and time to support the poor in other ways, as well. There are regular collections for those causes. I'm sure there is some level of corruption and embezzlement across the church globally, just as there is in just about any large institution, but I'd say that in terms of bringing in money, the vast majority of parishes and dioceses are just trying to get by, and to serve their communities when they can. The image of the Catholic Church being some vast, obscenely wealthy, powerful organization is good for the Da Vinci Code but doesn't really jibe with reality. The Vatican, whose annual budget is about five times smaller than that of Cleveland, rarely has revenue that exceeds its operating expenses.

tck42 6y ago
Are these budgets available online, or at least at the ask to the public? Since they're not paying taxes, I think they should be. If not, then who exactly is it transparent to? The church across the street from my house is large and I'm sure heating and upkeep is no small chunk of change. A good portion of the cars parked in the reserved row (staff) are nicer than mine, so I'm guessing the salary isn't necessarily "modest".
myWindoonn 6y ago
Have you ever looked at the annual expenditures of the entire Church [0]? Most of their income comes from interest on investments, and they manage their money well enough to cover their entire operating expenses and make a tidy profit which stays within the Church. The story that the Church donates most of its money "to help the poor and disadvantaged" is a reassurance which is meant to paper over the fact that the Church is not a very transparent organization. In terms of bringing in money, the vast majority of parishes and dioceses are on Church-owned land and have some sort of tax benefit or writeoff. This makes them far more stable than their surrounding community members, and somewhat ruins the image of the humble parish priest simply trying to spread the Good Word; his employer is certainly not humble in wealth. [0] http://www.ior.va/content/dam/ior/documenti/rapporto-annuale/IOR_AnnualReport_EN_2014.pdf http://www.ior.va/content/dam/ior/documenti/rapporto-annuale...
- jawns 6y ago
  You are mistaken that the IOR represents the annual expenses/income of the church, or even a large part of it. The IOR is a bank that provides financial services to Catholic institutions, such as religious communities and Vatican offices. When money is held, it's put in very low-risk, liquid investment accounts, such as government bonds. The clients of IOR use it so they can carry out religious and charitable operations worldwide.