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> How can you complain about Ubuntu LTS keeping Xorg as default in an LTS when RedHat itself had Xorg as default at that time. Isn't this hypocrisy or irony? R

> How can you complain about Ubuntu LTS keeping Xorg as default in an LTS when RedHat itself had Xorg as default at that time. Isn't this hypocrisy or irony? RHEL8 uses Wayland as default. RHEL8 was released in May 2019. Ubuntu LTS was released in April 2020. What hypocrisy you are talking about? > (same thing of idiots complaining about upstart being shit while RedHat and Goole were still using and supporting it. Redhat uses systemd since RHEL7; Upstart was used in RHEL6. Story time: Redhat management didn't see the point of systemd originally; Poettering did it in his spare time, and Redhat management has seen the point only after Fedora and Arch adopted it. Meanwhile, RHEL6 was already deep into its release cycle.

simion314 6y ago
So did you check the show stopper bugs that Ubuntu found? or they should ignore the bugs to please RH and it's fanbase ? Maybe the next LTS could profit by the fact that RH recently was forced to fix the bugs in Wayland (though not sure how many paying customers started using it yet and submit tickets for the devs to fix)
- vetinari 6y ago
  Show stopper for Ubuntu was screen capture. So screen capture works today, and if they switched, if would be difficult only for the first few weeks, when Ubuntu is buggy anyway. But they didn't and the long-term consequences of delaying it will be felt across all linux distributions for years to come. So much for appeasing RH and it's fanbase.
  - simion314 6y ago
    I disagree, this happened before with pulseaudio, it was not ready and for years people would recommend to remove it, so the leason is not replace something that works now with something that is shiny but might work next year. I also think NVIDIA had a role in this default display issue, Ubuntu has to use something that actually works on all hardware combinations,competent users can install and try a Wayland implementation or all of them.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      There are still people who uninstall pulseaudio, because "bloat" and then harass authors of audio applications to support their snowflake system. The forced PA brought some pain. but it forced swift improvement in audio drivers. Without it, we would still have half-buggy drivers that do not really work. Regarding Nvidia: all distributions that switched to Wayland default switched that only for supported hardware, so Nvidia users are still getting X11. I don't expect Ubuntu doing it differently.
      - simion314 6y ago
        I still think is terrible for the users but probably great for some developers. So you would force the casual user that has no issue with X to suffer so the Wayland and GNOME/KDE developers would hear better the pain and fix the bugs and add the missing features. This is the job of bleeding edge distros to offer you the latest bugs and features. I understand that when you work on your free time you want to work on shiny stuff that maybe you created and not on someone else old code, but for good results we see all the time that serious money need to be spend and developers need to be made to work on users feedback and not on what they like. Red Hat is pushing this, they have the money so they need to find more competent developers and do it right.
        vetinari 6y ago
        There is no split "terrible for users, great for some developers". Casual users do have issue with X; see this thread recently on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25970690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25970690. Would you consider that normal for users to handle? Of course not. Casual users having no issue with X is a lie. The fact is, that some subsytems on Linux are pile of hacks piled upon something built on assumptions that are no longer true. X11 is one of such subsystems. It is a dead end. When you are stuck in the dead end, you can either back up and once you are out, continue in your ride, or keep being stuck in the dead end. Wayland is backing out of the dead end; yes, it is short-term, high intensity pain, when you are not going forward, and even have to go back for a while. Piling new hacks on top of X11 is trying how to continue going forward without backing out of that dead-end. You will be stuck in that place for a long time, and ultimately you will move nowhere. That is long-term, low-intensity pain. Some people do not take the long term view (or do want to avoid high-intensity pain), being stuck in a place works for them (and chronic low-intensity pain is fine to them). These two approaches still clash, it is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0, all over again, 10 years later.

simion314 6y ago

So did you check the show stopper bugs that Ubuntu found? or they should ignore the bugs to please RH and it's fanbase ? Maybe the next LTS could profit by the fact that RH recently was forced to fix the bugs in Wayland (though not sure how many paying customers started using it yet and submit tickets for the devs to fix)

vetinari 6y ago
Show stopper for Ubuntu was screen capture. So screen capture works today, and if they switched, if would be difficult only for the first few weeks, when Ubuntu is buggy anyway. But they didn't and the long-term consequences of delaying it will be felt across all linux distributions for years to come. So much for appeasing RH and it's fanbase.
- simion314 6y ago
  I disagree, this happened before with pulseaudio, it was not ready and for years people would recommend to remove it, so the leason is not replace something that works now with something that is shiny but might work next year. I also think NVIDIA had a role in this default display issue, Ubuntu has to use something that actually works on all hardware combinations,competent users can install and try a Wayland implementation or all of them.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    There are still people who uninstall pulseaudio, because "bloat" and then harass authors of audio applications to support their snowflake system. The forced PA brought some pain. but it forced swift improvement in audio drivers. Without it, we would still have half-buggy drivers that do not really work. Regarding Nvidia: all distributions that switched to Wayland default switched that only for supported hardware, so Nvidia users are still getting X11. I don't expect Ubuntu doing it differently.
    - simion314 6y ago
      I still think is terrible for the users but probably great for some developers. So you would force the casual user that has no issue with X to suffer so the Wayland and GNOME/KDE developers would hear better the pain and fix the bugs and add the missing features. This is the job of bleeding edge distros to offer you the latest bugs and features. I understand that when you work on your free time you want to work on shiny stuff that maybe you created and not on someone else old code, but for good results we see all the time that serious money need to be spend and developers need to be made to work on users feedback and not on what they like. Red Hat is pushing this, they have the money so they need to find more competent developers and do it right.
      - vetinari 6y ago
        There is no split "terrible for users, great for some developers". Casual users do have issue with X; see this thread recently on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25970690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25970690. Would you consider that normal for users to handle? Of course not. Casual users having no issue with X is a lie. The fact is, that some subsytems on Linux are pile of hacks piled upon something built on assumptions that are no longer true. X11 is one of such subsystems. It is a dead end. When you are stuck in the dead end, you can either back up and once you are out, continue in your ride, or keep being stuck in the dead end. Wayland is backing out of the dead end; yes, it is short-term, high intensity pain, when you are not going forward, and even have to go back for a while. Piling new hacks on top of X11 is trying how to continue going forward without backing out of that dead-end. You will be stuck in that place for a long time, and ultimately you will move nowhere. That is long-term, low-intensity pain. Some people do not take the long term view (or do want to avoid high-intensity pain), being stuck in a place works for them (and chronic low-intensity pain is fine to them). These two approaches still clash, it is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0, all over again, 10 years later.