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As a native english speaker, "for example" and "that is" code as basically the same style of skip-over phrase: just there to lead into the important part. I'm

As a native english speaker, "for example" and "that is" code as basically the same style of skip-over phrase: just there to lead into the important part. I'm curious what distinction you are reading into it. I'm sure that as a native learner I was more apt to just take mental shortcuts rather than resolve these ambiguities.

8ytecoder 6y ago
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/ie-vs-eg-abbreviation-meaning-usage-difference https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/ie-vs-eg-abbre... I assumed "for example" follows a collection/set as opposed to "that is" which is a 1-1 mapping. Sibling comment clarified it for me on why "for example" makes sense in this context.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> As a native english speaker, "for example" and "that is" code as basically the same style of skip-over phrase: just there to lead into the important part. As a native English speaker, seriously, WTF? “That is” (for which two different latin-derived abbreviations are frequently used in English, i.e. and viz.) leads into an equivalent alternative to what precedes, while “for example” (for which e.g. is a latin-derived abbreviation) leads into an example intended to illustrate the broader category which precedes it. They are not equivalent, nor are they “skip over phrases”.
- Talanes 6y ago
  Where does using one over the other cause an actual change in information though? Not just sticking out as the wrong one if you know the proper distinction, but actually conveying different information? The comparison that follows is the important part, the abbreviation is a part of grammatical dressing that provides some flow and framing.
  - alvah 6y ago
    Always, if used correctly. i.e. = in other words, e.g. = for example. Surely, as a native English speaker, you can see the huge difference? One is definitive, the other is presenting one or more examples.
  - danaliv 6y ago
    I read my daily updates on technology, i.e., HackerNews... Totally different meaning if you replace i.e. with e.g.
    - Talanes 6y ago
      How so? Because I'm not going to assume that you are calling HackerNews the same as technology in any reading of the sentence, purely from context. So what other shifted meaning can be had from the swap?
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Because I’m not going to assume that you are calling HackerNews the same as technology in any reading of the sentence, purely from context. The first is saying “HackerNews” is the same as “my daily updates on technology” . The second (replacing “i.e.” with “e.g.”) is saying “HackerNews” is an example—one item in a broader collection—of “my daily updates on technology”.
  - jstanley 6y ago
    But "i.e." doesn't lead to a "comparison", it leads to a restating of the same thing. Take a look at a car (i.e. an automobile). Take a look at a car (e.g. a Nissan). Do you see the difference?
    - Talanes 6y ago
      I would still see the difference if you switched the e.g. and i.e. without batting an eye though.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > They are not equivalent They are often used as equivalents. Descriptivism is better than prescriptivism if you want to understand language as it's actually used.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > They are often used as equivalents No, they are often (though very, very far from most often) used in reverse because people forget which is which. Even in that case they have very distinct intended meanings, and are not equivalents. > Descriptivism is better than prescriptivism if you want to understand language as it's actually used. Sure, but descriptivism isn't “words lose all distinct meaning if occasionally someone mixes them up” or nothing would mean anything.
    - DanBC 6y ago
      > No, they are often (though very, very far from most often) used in reverse because people forget which is which. Even in that case they have very distinct intended meanings, and are not equivalents. Isn't this just another way of saying they're equivalent as used? People don't know which is which, they often don't car,e and they pick one. Prescriptivist "what should eg mean in this sentence?" Descriptivist "what does Bob mean when he uses eg in this sentence?"
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Isn't this just another way of saying they're equivalent as used? No, it's not. One is used a vast majority of the time to mean “that is” and occasionally, by different people, to mean “for example”. One is used a vast majority of the time to mean “for example” and occasionally, by different people, to mean “that is”. Neither group (not the one with the dominant understanding nor the one with the minority understanding) uses the terms interchangeably, they both use them with distinct meanings. The existence of some confusion of meaning and minority usages resulting from that does not eliminate all distinction in meaning, even from a descriptivist standpoint. It's true that “X means Y” is usually a simplification of a distribution to a modal value, but that's also widely recognized and, from a descriptivist standpoint, already incorporated into the meaning of the phrase.

8ytecoder 6y ago

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/ie-vs-eg-abbreviation-meaning-usage-difference https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/ie-vs-eg-abbre... I assumed "for example" follows a collection/set as opposed to "that is" which is a 1-1 mapping. Sibling comment clarified it for me on why "for example" makes sense in this context.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> As a native english speaker, "for example" and "that is" code as basically the same style of skip-over phrase: just there to lead into the important part. As a native English speaker, seriously, WTF? “That is” (for which two different latin-derived abbreviations are frequently used in English, i.e. and viz.) leads into an equivalent alternative to what precedes, while “for example” (for which e.g. is a latin-derived abbreviation) leads into an example intended to illustrate the broader category which precedes it. They are not equivalent, nor are they “skip over phrases”.

Talanes 6y ago
Where does using one over the other cause an actual change in information though? Not just sticking out as the wrong one if you know the proper distinction, but actually conveying different information? The comparison that follows is the important part, the abbreviation is a part of grammatical dressing that provides some flow and framing.
- alvah 6y ago
  Always, if used correctly. i.e. = in other words, e.g. = for example. Surely, as a native English speaker, you can see the huge difference? One is definitive, the other is presenting one or more examples.
- danaliv 6y ago
  I read my daily updates on technology, i.e., HackerNews... Totally different meaning if you replace i.e. with e.g.
  - Talanes 6y ago
    How so? Because I'm not going to assume that you are calling HackerNews the same as technology in any reading of the sentence, purely from context. So what other shifted meaning can be had from the swap?
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Because I’m not going to assume that you are calling HackerNews the same as technology in any reading of the sentence, purely from context. The first is saying “HackerNews” is the same as “my daily updates on technology” . The second (replacing “i.e.” with “e.g.”) is saying “HackerNews” is an example—one item in a broader collection—of “my daily updates on technology”.
- jstanley 6y ago
  But "i.e." doesn't lead to a "comparison", it leads to a restating of the same thing. Take a look at a car (i.e. an automobile). Take a look at a car (e.g. a Nissan). Do you see the difference?
  - Talanes 6y ago
    I would still see the difference if you switched the e.g. and i.e. without batting an eye though.
DanBC 6y ago
> They are not equivalent They are often used as equivalents. Descriptivism is better than prescriptivism if you want to understand language as it's actually used.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > They are often used as equivalents No, they are often (though very, very far from most often) used in reverse because people forget which is which. Even in that case they have very distinct intended meanings, and are not equivalents. > Descriptivism is better than prescriptivism if you want to understand language as it's actually used. Sure, but descriptivism isn't “words lose all distinct meaning if occasionally someone mixes them up” or nothing would mean anything.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > No, they are often (though very, very far from most often) used in reverse because people forget which is which. Even in that case they have very distinct intended meanings, and are not equivalents. Isn't this just another way of saying they're equivalent as used? People don't know which is which, they often don't car,e and they pick one. Prescriptivist "what should eg mean in this sentence?" Descriptivist "what does Bob mean when he uses eg in this sentence?"
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Isn't this just another way of saying they're equivalent as used? No, it's not. One is used a vast majority of the time to mean “that is” and occasionally, by different people, to mean “for example”. One is used a vast majority of the time to mean “for example” and occasionally, by different people, to mean “that is”. Neither group (not the one with the dominant understanding nor the one with the minority understanding) uses the terms interchangeably, they both use them with distinct meanings. The existence of some confusion of meaning and minority usages resulting from that does not eliminate all distinction in meaning, even from a descriptivist standpoint. It's true that “X means Y” is usually a simplification of a distribution to a modal value, but that's also widely recognized and, from a descriptivist standpoint, already incorporated into the meaning of the phrase.