4 ms·

Orthagonal and nitpick. I couldn't parse the "e.g., Dark Ages" part until I realised what you may have meant is "i.e., Dark Ages". I read "e.g.," as "for exampl

Orthagonal and nitpick. I couldn't parse the "e.g., Dark Ages" part until I realised what you may have meant is "i.e., Dark Ages". I read "e.g.," as "for example" and "i.e.," as "that is". (English is not my first language)

bonoboTP 6y ago
The "Dark Ages" usually refers to a subset of the Middle Ages, the earlier part, so "for example" worked for me and I only stopped and realized that ie was meant after reading your comment. This is one of those stupid things about English that make life for pupils harder for no reason. In most languages the abbreviation is straightforward and based on the actual language. (Also spelling bees don't exist in most other places). Entire classes of error possibilities are just made up for no good reason in English. (also, it's orthogonal, not orthagonal)
- 8ytecoder 6y ago
  Ah. It makes sense now.
Talanes 6y ago
As a native english speaker, "for example" and "that is" code as basically the same style of skip-over phrase: just there to lead into the important part. I'm curious what distinction you are reading into it. I'm sure that as a native learner I was more apt to just take mental shortcuts rather than resolve these ambiguities.
- 8ytecoder 6y ago
  https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/ie-vs-eg-abbreviation-meaning-usage-difference https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/ie-vs-eg-abbre... I assumed "for example" follows a collection/set as opposed to "that is" which is a 1-1 mapping. Sibling comment clarified it for me on why "for example" makes sense in this context.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > As a native english speaker, "for example" and "that is" code as basically the same style of skip-over phrase: just there to lead into the important part. As a native English speaker, seriously, WTF? “That is” (for which two different latin-derived abbreviations are frequently used in English, i.e. and viz.) leads into an equivalent alternative to what precedes, while “for example” (for which e.g. is a latin-derived abbreviation) leads into an example intended to illustrate the broader category which precedes it. They are not equivalent, nor are they “skip over phrases”.
  - Talanes 6y ago
    Where does using one over the other cause an actual change in information though? Not just sticking out as the wrong one if you know the proper distinction, but actually conveying different information? The comparison that follows is the important part, the abbreviation is a part of grammatical dressing that provides some flow and framing.
    - alvah 6y ago
      Always, if used correctly. i.e. = in other words, e.g. = for example. Surely, as a native English speaker, you can see the huge difference? One is definitive, the other is presenting one or more examples.
    - danaliv 6y ago
      I read my daily updates on technology, i.e., HackerNews... Totally different meaning if you replace i.e. with e.g.
      - Talanes 6y ago
        How so? Because I'm not going to assume that you are calling HackerNews the same as technology in any reading of the sentence, purely from context. So what other shifted meaning can be had from the swap?
        dragonwriter 6y ago
dragonwriter 6y ago
> I read "e.g.," as "for example" and "i.e.," as "that is". That's what each means, correct. > (English is not my first language) That's okay, it's not the first language of id est and exempli gratia, either.
- dllthomas 6y ago
  It's no more correct, but I like "example given" and "in essence", for the mnemonic value.

bonoboTP 6y ago

The "Dark Ages" usually refers to a subset of the Middle Ages, the earlier part, so "for example" worked for me and I only stopped and realized that ie was meant after reading your comment. This is one of those stupid things about English that make life for pupils harder for no reason. In most languages the abbreviation is straightforward and based on the actual language. (Also spelling bees don't exist in most other places). Entire classes of error possibilities are just made up for no good reason in English. (also, it's orthogonal, not orthagonal)

8ytecoder 6y ago
Ah. It makes sense now.

Talanes 6y ago

As a native english speaker, "for example" and "that is" code as basically the same style of skip-over phrase: just there to lead into the important part. I'm curious what distinction you are reading into it. I'm sure that as a native learner I was more apt to just take mental shortcuts rather than resolve these ambiguities.

8ytecoder 6y ago
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/ie-vs-eg-abbreviation-meaning-usage-difference https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/ie-vs-eg-abbre... I assumed "for example" follows a collection/set as opposed to "that is" which is a 1-1 mapping. Sibling comment clarified it for me on why "for example" makes sense in this context.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> As a native english speaker, "for example" and "that is" code as basically the same style of skip-over phrase: just there to lead into the important part. As a native English speaker, seriously, WTF? “That is” (for which two different latin-derived abbreviations are frequently used in English, i.e. and viz.) leads into an equivalent alternative to what precedes, while “for example” (for which e.g. is a latin-derived abbreviation) leads into an example intended to illustrate the broader category which precedes it. They are not equivalent, nor are they “skip over phrases”.
- Talanes 6y ago
  Where does using one over the other cause an actual change in information though? Not just sticking out as the wrong one if you know the proper distinction, but actually conveying different information? The comparison that follows is the important part, the abbreviation is a part of grammatical dressing that provides some flow and framing.
  - alvah 6y ago
    Always, if used correctly. i.e. = in other words, e.g. = for example. Surely, as a native English speaker, you can see the huge difference? One is definitive, the other is presenting one or more examples.
  - danaliv 6y ago
    I read my daily updates on technology, i.e., HackerNews... Totally different meaning if you replace i.e. with e.g.
    - Talanes 6y ago
      How so? Because I'm not going to assume that you are calling HackerNews the same as technology in any reading of the sentence, purely from context. So what other shifted meaning can be had from the swap?
      - dragonwriter 6y ago

dragonwriter 6y ago

> I read "e.g.," as "for example" and "i.e.," as "that is". That's what each means, correct. > (English is not my first language) That's okay, it's not the first language of id est and exempli gratia, either.

dllthomas 6y ago
It's no more correct, but I like "example given" and "in essence", for the mnemonic value.