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I’m unsure how Nvidia’s approach is worse. On GeForce now you can play games from Steam or Epic, right? Isn’t Stadia the same except you are locked into only Go

by oivey 6y ago

I’m unsure how Nvidia’s approach is worse. On GeForce now you can play games from Steam or Epic, right? Isn’t Stadia the same except you are locked into only Google’s store? That’s pretty significantly worse.

enos_feedler 6y ago
I'll repeat what I said: "the value prop needs to focus on the job at hand: playing a _specific_ game which happens to be your favorite game you play mostly. Thinking of it as some kind of a gaming platform is not the way." By considering Steam and Epic, you are already looking at this from the perspective of a platform. I am simply saying Stadia is better if the game you love is already there. NFL Madden is the latest Stadia promo right now. If most of your gaming time is consumed playing Madden, Stadia is probably the way to pay for it.
- oivey 6y ago
  Madden isn’t available on GeForce Now apparently, but besides that I don’t think you’ve explained why Stadia is better. On Stadia and GeForce Now, you pay a subscription fee and pay for the game. Is it something about the Stadia hardware that makes it better?
  - enos_feedler 6y ago
    Yes. Stadia does not assume you know how to use a gaming PC. Steam and Epic might be fine if you already know what those things are. If you don't, it is far too complex. Billions of people understand the simple app store model that comes with their phone. It's the one stadia uses.
    - oivey 6y ago
      Steam and Epic are literally app stores. I guess you have to link an extra account to use it with GeForce Now? For that minuscule amount of extra friction you get access to a much larger set of games on stores that won’t shut down when Google gets bored in a year or two. edit: in what way does Steam or Epic expect you to understand how to use a “gaming PC”?
      - enos_feedler 6y ago
        In the way that those are apps that gamers install on their gaming pc.
        oivey 6y ago
        Can you elaborate? You don’t need to install Steam or the game to play that game on GeForce Now.
        p1necone 6y ago
        You're not making any sense to me. Steam is just an app store. A "gaming PC" is just a regular PC with more powerful hardware in it, using software on it does not take any special skills specific to gaming PCs. And as the other commenter points out, playing steam games via geforce now doesn't even require installing the steam app anyway, it's just an account link.
        blueblisters 6y ago
        I am struggling to find an analogy but here goes. I think it's like the difference between a console in the cloud v/s a gaming pc in the cloud. For casual gamers, a console in the cloud with minimal configuration - switch it on and start playing - makes the most sense. If GeForce Now is a hosted gaming PC, I assume running a Windows O/S, it likely has the same configuration overhead of PC games, which most casual gamers don't want to deal with.
    - jeremyjh 6y ago
      Have you ever used Steam on Geforce Now? There is absolutely no friction. You do not even have to know Steam exists. You just search for the game you want, and do one more sign-up.
      - enos_feedler 6y ago
        I have. I used Geforce now, stadia, luna. I bought the hardware controllers. I've tried all of these platforms across all different form factors (pcs, laptop, ipads, iphones, android, LG television). I've signed up for individual games, game publisher channels UBISoft+. I invest millions of dollars into companies and my thesis is product driven. All of this is research I conduct myself, for myself. That isn't to say these services have gotten better since I last tested (Geforce i probably tested in November). From what I remember, it was a PC virtual machine with a queue system for availability. It wasn't "magic". Stadia is magic. Luna is somewhere in between.
  - Aunche 6y ago
    On Stadia, you just have to pay for the game. The subscription just unlocks HD and some free games. The fact that few people are aware of this really highlights how terribly Google marketed this.
- gsich 6y ago
  Xcloud or Geforcenow offer the best of both worlds. You "own" (in whatever sense you can "own" the game) the game and you have the choice where you want to play it. Not at home/cheap notebook? No problem. With Stadia you can only stream the game.
  - enos_feedler 6y ago
    The question for me is if it works on a cheap notebook or on the road, why wouldn't you just want to play it this way even when you are at home? Why do I want to own anything? I just want to play the games I bought.
    - gsich 6y ago
      Not possible with Stadia. You have to buy the games again to stream them. Why? Probably less latency/better quality with a PC.
      - enos_feedler 6y ago
        Is Cyberpunk better on a PC or better on Stadia? I've heard it's the best to play on Stadia.
        p1necone 6y ago
        Cyberpunk on Stadia is the PC version, it's just running on hardware in a server farm somewhere, rather than under your desk. Afaik they didn't make any meaningful Stadia specific changes to it. Obviously it depends on how well your local hardware compares to Stadias server farm too. The PC and Stadia versions are much better than the PS4 and Xbox One versions though - those do not run well at all. I suspect the actual PS5 and Xbox Series X versions will be relatively similar to the PC/Stadia version, but they haven't been released yet - you can only play the last gen console versions via backwards compatibility.
    - p1necone 6y ago
      Because playing with video compression, a max of 60fps and added latency is not ideal.
KaoruAoiShiho 6y ago
The UI is worse as you need to make yet another account and pay for steam. That experience is terrible enough to kill the thing for a non-gamer.
- oivey 6y ago
  It’s maybe a tiny bit worse, but describing it as terrible is a pretty extraordinary stretch. Google is fucked if the entire business model of Stadia, requiring massive investment in hardware, software, and content, depends on consumers being too stupid to link an account between app stores.
  - KaoruAoiShiho 6y ago
    Slightly better UX is the raison d'etre of companies like sony, apple, zoom, slack, etc. It matters a lot.
    - oivey 6y ago
      The level of inconvenience is on the same level as having to log into Gmail on my iPhone. That doesn’t stop me from using Gmail or buying an iPhone. UX matters a lot, but not that much. Steam is free by the way, since I guess I didn’t point that out in my last post. You just have to buy the games, same as Stadia.
      - KaoruAoiShiho 6y ago
        Nah, I need to type in my password every single time into steam. My password manager doesn't work. Since I have a very long password, it's almost impossible for me to play GFN.
- p1necone 6y ago
  Do you really think "non-gamers" are going to be converted by this? At this point if you're a "non-gamer" it isn't for lack of availability. You seem to be using "non-gamer" as a synonym for "too inexperienced to use basic modern technology", which I don't think is a widespread problem outside of age ranges that didn't grow up with the internet. A much bigger group is surely just people that aren't that interested in video games. (Unless you think Stadia is actually going after the geriatric market, which seems short sighted.)
ehsankia 6y ago
Nvidia literally throws you in a VM, where you have to log into Steam and use it as a computer. You & I may be gamers or computer users, but normal people don't want to deal with that shit. It also again assumed you have a Steam/Epic account to begin, or else that's another layer you have to deal with. With Stadia, you press one button and you're in the game 5s later. It also has deep integration, allowing friends list, voice chat, game invites, achievements, etc. Nvidia relies on Steam for those (Epic doesn't have most of it). That's just the surface level integration too. By having games integrate with Stadia's API, they can do other kinds of optimizations, like having simple optimized options, compares to Nvidia where you have to mess around with the settings like on PC. If you've used both, it's night and day experience. Again obviously for you and me, we're used to PC gaming, but for average people wanting to play some AAA game, GFN is a complete no-go.
- drusepth 6y ago
  I've silently listened on Discord to two different friends trying to get GFN working (for Among Us) in the past couple weeks. It's crazy how hard it can apparently be to install and set up for the average person.
  - potatoman22 6y ago
    I just downloaded it, booted it up, signed in, and it launched my game.
    - drusepth 6y ago
      I just asked one of the friends what his problem was and he said that it was just the servers that were down, so I guess it wasn't too hard to set up for him after all.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  > you have to log into Steam and use it as a computer If I recall correctly, you have to do this once, and it can save your log-in details for next time. > You & I may be gamers or computer users, but normal people don't want to deal with that shit. Gamers are their target audience. > By having games integrate with Stadia's API, they can do other kinds of optimizations, like having simple optimized options, compares to Nvidia where you have to mess around with the settings like on PC. That's true. I've found it's sometimes necessary to change the settings, as the default graphical settings are far below what the hardware is capable of handling. I'm sure nVidia could do something about that if they had the will to.
ThatPlayer 6y ago
Nvidia has a monthly subscription costs if you don't want the free plan limitations like a queue time and a one hour session limit. Stadia's free plan limitation is only 1080p and stereo instead of 4K resolution, 5.1 surround sound, and HDR. If you're just buying a single game, Stadia comes out ahead on price when you're only paying $60 for the game rather than Geforce Now where you pay $60 for the game and then a monthly fee for every month you're playing.

by oivey 6y ago

enos_feedler 6y ago

I'll repeat what I said: "the value prop needs to focus on the job at hand: playing a _specific_ game which happens to be your favorite game you play mostly. Thinking of it as some kind of a gaming platform is not the way." By considering Steam and Epic, you are already looking at this from the perspective of a platform. I am simply saying Stadia is better if the game you love is already there. NFL Madden is the latest Stadia promo right now. If most of your gaming time is consumed playing Madden, Stadia is probably the way to pay for it.

oivey 6y ago
Madden isn’t available on GeForce Now apparently, but besides that I don’t think you’ve explained why Stadia is better. On Stadia and GeForce Now, you pay a subscription fee and pay for the game. Is it something about the Stadia hardware that makes it better?
- enos_feedler 6y ago
  Yes. Stadia does not assume you know how to use a gaming PC. Steam and Epic might be fine if you already know what those things are. If you don't, it is far too complex. Billions of people understand the simple app store model that comes with their phone. It's the one stadia uses.
  - oivey 6y ago
    Steam and Epic are literally app stores. I guess you have to link an extra account to use it with GeForce Now? For that minuscule amount of extra friction you get access to a much larger set of games on stores that won’t shut down when Google gets bored in a year or two. edit: in what way does Steam or Epic expect you to understand how to use a “gaming PC”?
    - enos_feedler 6y ago
      In the way that those are apps that gamers install on their gaming pc.
      - oivey 6y ago
        Can you elaborate? You don’t need to install Steam or the game to play that game on GeForce Now.
      - p1necone 6y ago
        You're not making any sense to me. Steam is just an app store. A "gaming PC" is just a regular PC with more powerful hardware in it, using software on it does not take any special skills specific to gaming PCs. And as the other commenter points out, playing steam games via geforce now doesn't even require installing the steam app anyway, it's just an account link.
        blueblisters 6y ago
        I am struggling to find an analogy but here goes. I think it's like the difference between a console in the cloud v/s a gaming pc in the cloud. For casual gamers, a console in the cloud with minimal configuration - switch it on and start playing - makes the most sense. If GeForce Now is a hosted gaming PC, I assume running a Windows O/S, it likely has the same configuration overhead of PC games, which most casual gamers don't want to deal with.
  - jeremyjh 6y ago
    Have you ever used Steam on Geforce Now? There is absolutely no friction. You do not even have to know Steam exists. You just search for the game you want, and do one more sign-up.
    - enos_feedler 6y ago
      I have. I used Geforce now, stadia, luna. I bought the hardware controllers. I've tried all of these platforms across all different form factors (pcs, laptop, ipads, iphones, android, LG television). I've signed up for individual games, game publisher channels UBISoft+. I invest millions of dollars into companies and my thesis is product driven. All of this is research I conduct myself, for myself. That isn't to say these services have gotten better since I last tested (Geforce i probably tested in November). From what I remember, it was a PC virtual machine with a queue system for availability. It wasn't "magic". Stadia is magic. Luna is somewhere in between.
- Aunche 6y ago
  On Stadia, you just have to pay for the game. The subscription just unlocks HD and some free games. The fact that few people are aware of this really highlights how terribly Google marketed this.
gsich 6y ago
Xcloud or Geforcenow offer the best of both worlds. You "own" (in whatever sense you can "own" the game) the game and you have the choice where you want to play it. Not at home/cheap notebook? No problem. With Stadia you can only stream the game.
- enos_feedler 6y ago
  The question for me is if it works on a cheap notebook or on the road, why wouldn't you just want to play it this way even when you are at home? Why do I want to own anything? I just want to play the games I bought.
  - gsich 6y ago
    Not possible with Stadia. You have to buy the games again to stream them. Why? Probably less latency/better quality with a PC.
    - enos_feedler 6y ago
      Is Cyberpunk better on a PC or better on Stadia? I've heard it's the best to play on Stadia.
      - p1necone 6y ago
        Cyberpunk on Stadia is the PC version, it's just running on hardware in a server farm somewhere, rather than under your desk. Afaik they didn't make any meaningful Stadia specific changes to it. Obviously it depends on how well your local hardware compares to Stadias server farm too. The PC and Stadia versions are much better than the PS4 and Xbox One versions though - those do not run well at all. I suspect the actual PS5 and Xbox Series X versions will be relatively similar to the PC/Stadia version, but they haven't been released yet - you can only play the last gen console versions via backwards compatibility.
  - p1necone 6y ago
    Because playing with video compression, a max of 60fps and added latency is not ideal.

KaoruAoiShiho 6y ago

The UI is worse as you need to make yet another account and pay for steam. That experience is terrible enough to kill the thing for a non-gamer.

oivey 6y ago
It’s maybe a tiny bit worse, but describing it as terrible is a pretty extraordinary stretch. Google is fucked if the entire business model of Stadia, requiring massive investment in hardware, software, and content, depends on consumers being too stupid to link an account between app stores.
- KaoruAoiShiho 6y ago
  Slightly better UX is the raison d'etre of companies like sony, apple, zoom, slack, etc. It matters a lot.
  - oivey 6y ago
    The level of inconvenience is on the same level as having to log into Gmail on my iPhone. That doesn’t stop me from using Gmail or buying an iPhone. UX matters a lot, but not that much. Steam is free by the way, since I guess I didn’t point that out in my last post. You just have to buy the games, same as Stadia.
    - KaoruAoiShiho 6y ago
      Nah, I need to type in my password every single time into steam. My password manager doesn't work. Since I have a very long password, it's almost impossible for me to play GFN.
p1necone 6y ago
Do you really think "non-gamers" are going to be converted by this? At this point if you're a "non-gamer" it isn't for lack of availability. You seem to be using "non-gamer" as a synonym for "too inexperienced to use basic modern technology", which I don't think is a widespread problem outside of age ranges that didn't grow up with the internet. A much bigger group is surely just people that aren't that interested in video games. (Unless you think Stadia is actually going after the geriatric market, which seems short sighted.)

ehsankia 6y ago

Nvidia literally throws you in a VM, where you have to log into Steam and use it as a computer. You & I may be gamers or computer users, but normal people don't want to deal with that shit. It also again assumed you have a Steam/Epic account to begin, or else that's another layer you have to deal with. With Stadia, you press one button and you're in the game 5s later. It also has deep integration, allowing friends list, voice chat, game invites, achievements, etc. Nvidia relies on Steam for those (Epic doesn't have most of it). That's just the surface level integration too. By having games integrate with Stadia's API, they can do other kinds of optimizations, like having simple optimized options, compares to Nvidia where you have to mess around with the settings like on PC. If you've used both, it's night and day experience. Again obviously for you and me, we're used to PC gaming, but for average people wanting to play some AAA game, GFN is a complete no-go.

drusepth 6y ago
I've silently listened on Discord to two different friends trying to get GFN working (for Among Us) in the past couple weeks. It's crazy how hard it can apparently be to install and set up for the average person.
- potatoman22 6y ago
  I just downloaded it, booted it up, signed in, and it launched my game.
  - drusepth 6y ago
    I just asked one of the friends what his problem was and he said that it was just the servers that were down, so I guess it wasn't too hard to set up for him after all.
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> you have to log into Steam and use it as a computer If I recall correctly, you have to do this once, and it can save your log-in details for next time. > You & I may be gamers or computer users, but normal people don't want to deal with that shit. Gamers are their target audience. > By having games integrate with Stadia's API, they can do other kinds of optimizations, like having simple optimized options, compares to Nvidia where you have to mess around with the settings like on PC. That's true. I've found it's sometimes necessary to change the settings, as the default graphical settings are far below what the hardware is capable of handling. I'm sure nVidia could do something about that if they had the will to.

ThatPlayer 6y ago

Nvidia has a monthly subscription costs if you don't want the free plan limitations like a queue time and a one hour session limit. Stadia's free plan limitation is only 1080p and stereo instead of 4K resolution, 5.1 surround sound, and HDR. If you're just buying a single game, Stadia comes out ahead on price when you're only paying $60 for the game rather than Geforce Now where you pay $60 for the game and then a monthly fee for every month you're playing.