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Whenever I see these discussions I only ever see the drawbacks of restricting drug manufacturing and distribution and never the drawbacks of legalization. An ho

by umvi 6y ago

Whenever I see these discussions I only ever see the drawbacks of restricting drug manufacturing and distribution and never the drawbacks of legalization. An honest analysis would acknowledge the drawbacks of legalization too. It's difficult to tell exactly what the long term consequences of complete drug legalization are, and I guarantee there are some negative consequences. For example, legalization might reduce the scale of drug trafficking, but I doubt it would eliminate it completely. Tobacco is completely legal yet due to high taxes there is still a large multi-billion dollar bootlegging business to smuggle cigarettes across tax gradients. Also, highly taxed drugs will likely result in an increase in related crimes like theft. I had a friend from high school who was addicted to heroin. When he ran out of money he was willing to mug old ladies to come up with the cash for more. If heroin were instead legal... why wouldn't he just steal directly from the legal distribution source now that the threat of violence is no longer there? You don't steal from the dealer because you might be killed, but stealing from Walmart or CVS or whoever is carrying it? Why not? Corporate policy probably says not to do anything. Lastly, unless marketing is highly restricted, legalization of drugs will absolutely lead to an increase in usage across all demographics. And a net increase in usage will cause some % increase in DWI rates, overdose rates, health care impact, etc. We will pay some price for legalization as well, it's just TBD and nebulous at this point.

triceratops 6y ago
> If heroin were instead legal... It would be so cheap your friend from high school could afford it with a standard burger flipping job. He'd have no need to resort to violent crimes to afford heroin.
- umvi 6y ago
  How much are we talking? Is this pre or post taxes? Cigarettes are super cheap pre-taxes, but post-taxes they can be extremely expensive, especially in places like NYC.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    Are there a lot of armed robberies committed by smokers in NYC because they can't afford cigarettes? They might buy from bootleggers if they can't afford the fully-taxed cigs. That's a crime too, obviously, but somewhat less serious than armed robbery.
    - umvi 6y ago
      > Are there a lot of armed robberies committed by smokers in NYC because they can't afford cigarettes? I can't really quantify "a lot" or whether the thieves were smokers that couldn't afford them, but it's clearly happening. Here are some armed robberies from 2020 in NYC that involved stealing cigarettes at gunpoint: [0][1][2] > They might buy from bootleggers if they can't afford the fully-taxed cigs I would guess this is the preferable option to robbing stores, but if you literally have no money, even bootleg cigarettes are off the table. [0] https://abc7ny.com/armed-suspect-pulls-out-gun-steals-cigarettes-from-nyc-deli/6361585/ https://abc7ny.com/armed-suspect-pulls-out-gun-steals-cigare... [1] https://nypost.com/2020/02/18/robber-armed-with-rifle-hits-nyc-smoke-shop-video-shows/ https://nypost.com/2020/02/18/robber-armed-with-rifle-hits-n... [2] https://patch.com/new-york/parkslope/man-robs-nyc-7-elevens-gunpoint-cash-cigarettes-cops https://patch.com/new-york/parkslope/man-robs-nyc-7-elevens-...
  - JulianMorrison 6y ago
    Heroin is a simple chemical readily extractable from an agricultural crop. I wouldn't expect the base price to be higher than vitamin supplements. Of course how high that's pushed by sin taxes is a matter for legislatures.
TylerE 6y ago
> highly taxed drugs will likely result in an increase in related crimes like theft. Even if taxed at 100%, I have a really hard time believing that will result in most in drugs being more expensive.
- umvi 6y ago
  Depends on the location. Using cigarettes as an analogue... they are really cheap to manufacture, but some places like NYC tax at a rate even greater than 100% (nearly $6/pack flat tax last I checked, which means once you add in margin and vendor costs you are looking at $10+/pack which is brutal for an impoverished pack-a-day addict). So as a result there is a massive bootleg market where cigarettes are smuggled in from low or no-tax areas and sold illicitly. I'm not super familiar with street prices of drugs, but if politicians tax drugs the way they tax cigarettes and alcohol, it will be burdensome for drug addicts and cause increased theft and bootleg operations that have some (but not all) of the same problems as drug trafficking.
  - TylerE 6y ago
    I live in tobaccco country. Tobacco is actually quite hard to grow - it's very labor intensive and picky about conditions.
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Go back to prohibition, liquor was quite expensive compared to legal liquor post prohibition. And again, bootleg cigarette markets are almost devoid of violence compared to illegal drugs.
sandworm101 6y ago
>> drawbacks of restricting drug manufacturing Ya, like how if you get the recipe for a drug only slightly wrong you turn it from useful tool to deadly poison. I want the FDA inspecting facilities. I want them testing purity, and then testing the tests that they use test the previously tested test. When I buy aspirin I want to know it is aspirin and not anything else. "Let the market decide" doesn't help me once I'm poisoned. Please government, regulate drug manufacturers.
valuearb 6y ago
Are you seriously comparing tobacco bootlegging with drug trafficking? Wake me up when tobacco bootleggers are having gang wars in large cities using semi-automatic weapons and responsible for a large percentage of our murder rate. Tax avoidance happens everywhere and it’s contribution to our violent crime rate is minute. And why would your friend rob anyone if his heroin cost a fraction of today’s price, and he could easily procure it? And if he faced no Neil time for buying it legally?
totony 6y ago
>I had a friend from high school who was addicted to heroin. When he ran out of money he was willing to mug old ladies to come up with the cash for more. If heroin were instead legal... why wouldn't he just steal directly from the legal distribution source now that the threat of violence is no longer there? That seems like more of a net positive IMO. Theft of institutions must be less deadly/detrimental than the alternative. Even if people were to steal more from (say) Walmart than rob grandmas, it'd still be positive. >And a net increase in usage will cause some % increase in DWI rates, overdose rates, health care impact, etc. This might not be the case because of increase purity/social and institutional support because of destigmatization/re-invested profits taken from taxing the product.
neurotology 6y ago
For people who believe that legalization is a net good, there is a tendency to view any discussion of the (very real) drawbacks as an attempt to maintain the status quo, which is causing enormous suffering, and is thus unethical. I myself have been guilty of this. > Lastly, unless marketing is highly restricted, You raise a good point. There is only one status quo, but legalization can take many forms. As an example, I mostly agree with the model presented here: https://transformdrugs.org/product/how-to-regulate-stimulants-a-practical-guide/ https://transformdrugs.org/product/how-to-regulate-stimulant... (See the "Balancing conflicting priorities" heading for some (admittedly sparse) discussion of drawbacks.) Drugs would be manufactured and sold only by government-licensed operators, in unattractive packaging with prominent warnings, and advertisement would be strictly forbidden. I also think that legalization and regulation can't happen in a vacuum. This may be an unpopular opinion in the United States, but I think that a social safety net (like welfare or even UBI) that allowed your friend to purchase legal heroin instead of mugging old ladies would be an excellent use of my taxes.

by umvi 6y ago

triceratops 6y ago

> If heroin were instead legal... It would be so cheap your friend from high school could afford it with a standard burger flipping job. He'd have no need to resort to violent crimes to afford heroin.

umvi 6y ago
How much are we talking? Is this pre or post taxes? Cigarettes are super cheap pre-taxes, but post-taxes they can be extremely expensive, especially in places like NYC.
- triceratops 6y ago
  Are there a lot of armed robberies committed by smokers in NYC because they can't afford cigarettes? They might buy from bootleggers if they can't afford the fully-taxed cigs. That's a crime too, obviously, but somewhat less serious than armed robbery.
  - umvi 6y ago
    > Are there a lot of armed robberies committed by smokers in NYC because they can't afford cigarettes? I can't really quantify "a lot" or whether the thieves were smokers that couldn't afford them, but it's clearly happening. Here are some armed robberies from 2020 in NYC that involved stealing cigarettes at gunpoint: [0][1][2] > They might buy from bootleggers if they can't afford the fully-taxed cigs I would guess this is the preferable option to robbing stores, but if you literally have no money, even bootleg cigarettes are off the table. [0] https://abc7ny.com/armed-suspect-pulls-out-gun-steals-cigarettes-from-nyc-deli/6361585/ https://abc7ny.com/armed-suspect-pulls-out-gun-steals-cigare... [1] https://nypost.com/2020/02/18/robber-armed-with-rifle-hits-nyc-smoke-shop-video-shows/ https://nypost.com/2020/02/18/robber-armed-with-rifle-hits-n... [2] https://patch.com/new-york/parkslope/man-robs-nyc-7-elevens-gunpoint-cash-cigarettes-cops https://patch.com/new-york/parkslope/man-robs-nyc-7-elevens-...
- JulianMorrison 6y ago
  Heroin is a simple chemical readily extractable from an agricultural crop. I wouldn't expect the base price to be higher than vitamin supplements. Of course how high that's pushed by sin taxes is a matter for legislatures.

TylerE 6y ago

> highly taxed drugs will likely result in an increase in related crimes like theft. Even if taxed at 100%, I have a really hard time believing that will result in most in drugs being more expensive.

umvi 6y ago
Depends on the location. Using cigarettes as an analogue... they are really cheap to manufacture, but some places like NYC tax at a rate even greater than 100% (nearly $6/pack flat tax last I checked, which means once you add in margin and vendor costs you are looking at $10+/pack which is brutal for an impoverished pack-a-day addict). So as a result there is a massive bootleg market where cigarettes are smuggled in from low or no-tax areas and sold illicitly. I'm not super familiar with street prices of drugs, but if politicians tax drugs the way they tax cigarettes and alcohol, it will be burdensome for drug addicts and cause increased theft and bootleg operations that have some (but not all) of the same problems as drug trafficking.
- TylerE 6y ago
  I live in tobaccco country. Tobacco is actually quite hard to grow - it's very labor intensive and picky about conditions.
- valuearb 6y ago
  Go back to prohibition, liquor was quite expensive compared to legal liquor post prohibition. And again, bootleg cigarette markets are almost devoid of violence compared to illegal drugs.

sandworm101 6y ago

>> drawbacks of restricting drug manufacturing Ya, like how if you get the recipe for a drug only slightly wrong you turn it from useful tool to deadly poison. I want the FDA inspecting facilities. I want them testing purity, and then testing the tests that they use test the previously tested test. When I buy aspirin I want to know it is aspirin and not anything else. "Let the market decide" doesn't help me once I'm poisoned. Please government, regulate drug manufacturers.

valuearb 6y ago

Are you seriously comparing tobacco bootlegging with drug trafficking? Wake me up when tobacco bootleggers are having gang wars in large cities using semi-automatic weapons and responsible for a large percentage of our murder rate. Tax avoidance happens everywhere and it’s contribution to our violent crime rate is minute. And why would your friend rob anyone if his heroin cost a fraction of today’s price, and he could easily procure it? And if he faced no Neil time for buying it legally?

totony 6y ago

>I had a friend from high school who was addicted to heroin. When he ran out of money he was willing to mug old ladies to come up with the cash for more. If heroin were instead legal... why wouldn't he just steal directly from the legal distribution source now that the threat of violence is no longer there? That seems like more of a net positive IMO. Theft of institutions must be less deadly/detrimental than the alternative. Even if people were to steal more from (say) Walmart than rob grandmas, it'd still be positive. >And a net increase in usage will cause some % increase in DWI rates, overdose rates, health care impact, etc. This might not be the case because of increase purity/social and institutional support because of destigmatization/re-invested profits taken from taxing the product.

neurotology 6y ago

For people who believe that legalization is a net good, there is a tendency to view any discussion of the (very real) drawbacks as an attempt to maintain the status quo, which is causing enormous suffering, and is thus unethical. I myself have been guilty of this. > Lastly, unless marketing is highly restricted, You raise a good point. There is only one status quo, but legalization can take many forms. As an example, I mostly agree with the model presented here: https://transformdrugs.org/product/how-to-regulate-stimulants-a-practical-guide/ https://transformdrugs.org/product/how-to-regulate-stimulant... (See the "Balancing conflicting priorities" heading for some (admittedly sparse) discussion of drawbacks.) Drugs would be manufactured and sold only by government-licensed operators, in unattractive packaging with prominent warnings, and advertisement would be strictly forbidden. I also think that legalization and regulation can't happen in a vacuum. This may be an unpopular opinion in the United States, but I think that a social safety net (like welfare or even UBI) that allowed your friend to purchase legal heroin instead of mugging old ladies would be an excellent use of my taxes.