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> Minimizing menial tasks. Menial tasks really suck. I know everyone must hate doing these, but to put it into perspective, I would rather do 20 hours of really

> Minimizing menial tasks. Menial tasks really suck. I know everyone must hate doing these, but to put it into perspective, I would rather do 20 hours of really really hard work on a tough project than do 5 hours of menial tasks Interesting. I have ADHD (inattentive subtype) and am quite the opposite. My apartment is never cleaner than when I have an extremely important, open-ended project with multiple stakeholders to address. Seriously, I end up dusting the screws that hold up the door frames.

rootsudo 6y ago
That's exactly why menial tasks suck, they are a procrastination enabler vs unable to get into "flow" to accomplish more interesting/complicated tasks.
- jrowley 6y ago
  I think the parent commenter would say that open ended nature of the task makes it not menial - so they procrastinate because it's very hard to get started. Its discrete, not a single ticket that's easier to focus on and get info flow state with.
athorax 6y ago
For me, it is the "open-ended" part of a project that really ends up screwing me. If I don't have a definitive task/goal to work towards that is when I start to procrastinate
- dmarchand90 6y ago
  For me the worst part is when I have a combination of short urgent tasks and an open ended one. The open ended task always ends up being pushed aside
  - athorax 6y ago
    My support request queue has been routinely emptied this week exactly because of that haha
  - aspaceman 6y ago
    This is a helpful way to put it thanks. I do the same thing. I have a job that involves juggling creative research and more menial bug reports, and this is exactly what I do.
- jasonlotito 6y ago
  Oh, I know this problem. Happens quite often. A technique I use is to break down the project into smaller pieces. What's the smallest well-defined task/goal I can work toward. Even if it's just setting up the repo, or writing out a README. It's amazing how often this little step can help kick things off.
  - athorax 6y ago
    Definitely. It is one of the reasons I enjoy working in a 2 week sprint setting (all other reasons aside). It forces me to really break tasks down to actionable items
- hi_hello 6y ago
  So much. Open-ended or poorly defined projects can really spiral into attentive dysphoria for me. Productive procrastination – room cleaning and the like – is particularly appealing in that state, just to feel like I'm making progress on something.
  - xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
    The best manager I ever had set it up like so, he'd go: Here's a large, open-ended problem I want you to solve this quarter. I'll secretly wait while you fix a thousand other unrelated problems that make our business better despite making no visible progress on the open-ended problem. Then I'll reframe your work to show management that the thousand other things you improved are more valuable than the open-ended problem, and get you promoted. I miss that guy.
- devoutsalsa 6y ago
  I struggle when there isn’t enough work to do, and when I do scrounge up work, it ends up being non-meaningful work.
- heroHACK17 6y ago
  Man, I am the same way. How have you coped with this? I work in a pretty open-ended environment without a lot of processes, so you can imagine it has been a struggle for me. I have tried to create tickets for myself but I seem to also struggle with defining the "done" state.
  - delecti 6y ago
    My only strategy for that problem is to break things down as much as possible into subtasks. That helps because I'm at least more likely to get something done if there's a list of things I can weigh the terribleness of. As the GP comment said that they'd clean their apartment rather than get work done, I'll do the tasks with more clarity to procrastinate doing the tasks with more ambiguity. Eventually, doing the tasks with clarity help clear up the ambiguity in the others.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Not super related, but a friend of mine recently said "If you're the kind of person who is satisfied by a large task list, you shouldn't make todos. If you're the kind of person who hates them, you should." It seems obvious after it being mentioned, but I noticed a useful corollary: a list of done tasks actually makes me unhappy. So I avoid todo pages where a done list is visible. Hiding done tasks (i.e. archiving done cards on Trello, deleting a row on your todo list instead of strikethrough), etc. has led me to use it better. This isn't your problem, clearly, but just wanted to share a useful tip.
  - hnick 6y ago
    Maybe the concept of the "wall of awful" will help you understand it more. I struggle with it too though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo08uS904Rg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo08uS904Rg
  - JohnBooty 6y ago
    Same boat. It's not a magic cure, but my semi-okay-coping mechanism is to make daily to-do lists. The key though, is not just "making to-do lists".... it's right-sizing the items on them. Every task should have a finite end state and (this is crucial) shouldn't be longer than 15-20 minutes or so. If they are longer than that, it almost certainly needs to be broken down into constituent tasks. So even something like "clean my office" probably needs to be broken down a little more -- when I'm on my game I break it down into "vac office", "dust office", "organize desk drawer", etc. This pairs nicely with the "Pomodoro method" if you've ever tried it.
ardy42 6y ago
I'm like the OP. The distinction I make is: 1) A tough project can be engrossing. Getting started is always tough, but after that it's relatively easy to keep up momentum. 2) Menial tasks are not engrossing and are usually quick, so they require a level of attention control to stay focused on them that I'm just not capable of. It's like "getting started" over and over.
01100011 6y ago
Yeah I feel like I hide in those tasks to achieve a sense of accomplishment while also avoiding the uncomfortable task I should be working on. Then again, those tasks help me pass the time until the deadline for the important task is close enough to generate the fear/anxiety necessary for me to work on it.
- TheTrotters 6y ago
  And it's so satisfying to something that gives you physical feedback (doing dishes, vacuuming). Most of my day is spend doing math or programming so all my works takes place on a computer, a piece of paper, or in my head.
curiousllama 6y ago
I'm 100% the same - I once accidentally trained for a marathon.
I_AM_A_SMURF 6y ago
My completely ignorant theory is that it's still about "can only do the things I really like to do" part of ADHD. I also like to clean up my place because of the sense of accomplishment that it gives me (especially when at work I don't feel like I'm making progress because I spent all day coaching/meetings/etc) but not everyone might feel like that, I can definitely think of someone with ADHD that doesn't like to clean up the same way I don't like plan my meals (please don't make me do it).
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
The pop-science definition of ADHD has started to stray very far from the science. There’s a growing tendency for newly diagnosed ADHD patients to try to explain all of their mental habits and preferences through the lens of ADHD. Some times they have helpful feedback for other people with similar habits, but other times they just paint ADHD with an overly broad brush. They often have unrealistically lofty ideals of what a non-ADHD person looks like, or describe basic human nature as ADHD (for example: it's perfectly normal if you'd prefer to play video games than do your homework. We've all been there, ADHD or not) One thing I would recommend: Don’t let an ADHD diagnosis define your personality. A diagnosis is simply a guide map for treatment. It shouldn’t become a stereotype that defines you as a person. Use the diagnosis to learn techniques to overcome difficulties, but don’t let the diagnosis become a convenient excuse to let yourself off the hook or explain away concerns that would be better served by some personal growth.
- throwawaydhd 6y ago
  > There’s a growing tendency for newly diagnosed ADHD patients to try to explain all of their mental habits and preferences through the lens of ADHD. I've noticed this a lot on the ADHD forums. Agreed, it's uncomfortable to read. Personally, I'm very embarrassed and ashamed of my ADHD (hence the throwaway account here), so I try to minimise what I consider its scope as much as I can. When I was eventually diagnosed, even though I sought out being investigated for ADHD, I was disappointed! I said to the psychiatrist, I was hoping you'd tell me it's something else. But no, it was ADHD, and the medication does help. Also if I am explaining it to someone for whatever reason, I'll make sure to point out that it might be a reason for some things, but not an excuse. I hate the thought of not taking responsibility. I mean, it's still my broken brain at fault, even if I didn't break it myself.
- rubicon33 6y ago
  "Don’t let an ADHD diagnosis define your personality." "... but don’t let the diagnosis become a convenient excuse to let yourself off the hook or explain away concerns that would be better served by some personal growth" I totally understand this perspective and I do think it's a healthy one, but, where do you draw the line? I've been diagnosed with ADHD but personally hate the diagnosis. I don't want to be viewed through that lens, nor do I want to view myself that way. That said, there's just no denying that I'm a different (better) person when I'm treating the condition. I get more work done. I fight less with my wife. I'm way less frustrated angry on a daily basis, etc. Small tasks that normally seem like mountains, become mole hills. I've done counseling and I've done exercise, diet, sleep. I've seen the most dramatic results when I've just accepted I have ADHD and taken medication. Yet comments like yours re-ignite my desire quit taking the medications, and return to what feels normal ... even if feeling normal was so bad for me. What I'm trying to say is ... I think some people DO need to lean into the diagnosis. Accept that it's part of their life. If treatment improves your life, don't shy away from it. I don't know. I'm still just trying to figure it all out myself. I hate the idea of being "ADHD" but I'm starting to form the belief that I need to do what's right for my future, and my family, even if it means accepting I have a condition that requires something as dramatic as taking medication.

rootsudo 6y ago

That's exactly why menial tasks suck, they are a procrastination enabler vs unable to get into "flow" to accomplish more interesting/complicated tasks.

jrowley 6y ago
I think the parent commenter would say that open ended nature of the task makes it not menial - so they procrastinate because it's very hard to get started. Its discrete, not a single ticket that's easier to focus on and get info flow state with.

athorax 6y ago

For me, it is the "open-ended" part of a project that really ends up screwing me. If I don't have a definitive task/goal to work towards that is when I start to procrastinate

dmarchand90 6y ago
For me the worst part is when I have a combination of short urgent tasks and an open ended one. The open ended task always ends up being pushed aside
- athorax 6y ago
  My support request queue has been routinely emptied this week exactly because of that haha
- aspaceman 6y ago
  This is a helpful way to put it thanks. I do the same thing. I have a job that involves juggling creative research and more menial bug reports, and this is exactly what I do.
jasonlotito 6y ago
Oh, I know this problem. Happens quite often. A technique I use is to break down the project into smaller pieces. What's the smallest well-defined task/goal I can work toward. Even if it's just setting up the repo, or writing out a README. It's amazing how often this little step can help kick things off.
- athorax 6y ago
  Definitely. It is one of the reasons I enjoy working in a 2 week sprint setting (all other reasons aside). It forces me to really break tasks down to actionable items
hi_hello 6y ago
So much. Open-ended or poorly defined projects can really spiral into attentive dysphoria for me. Productive procrastination – room cleaning and the like – is particularly appealing in that state, just to feel like I'm making progress on something.
- xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
  The best manager I ever had set it up like so, he'd go: Here's a large, open-ended problem I want you to solve this quarter. I'll secretly wait while you fix a thousand other unrelated problems that make our business better despite making no visible progress on the open-ended problem. Then I'll reframe your work to show management that the thousand other things you improved are more valuable than the open-ended problem, and get you promoted. I miss that guy.
devoutsalsa 6y ago
I struggle when there isn’t enough work to do, and when I do scrounge up work, it ends up being non-meaningful work.
heroHACK17 6y ago
Man, I am the same way. How have you coped with this? I work in a pretty open-ended environment without a lot of processes, so you can imagine it has been a struggle for me. I have tried to create tickets for myself but I seem to also struggle with defining the "done" state.
- delecti 6y ago
  My only strategy for that problem is to break things down as much as possible into subtasks. That helps because I'm at least more likely to get something done if there's a list of things I can weigh the terribleness of. As the GP comment said that they'd clean their apartment rather than get work done, I'll do the tasks with more clarity to procrastinate doing the tasks with more ambiguity. Eventually, doing the tasks with clarity help clear up the ambiguity in the others.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  Not super related, but a friend of mine recently said "If you're the kind of person who is satisfied by a large task list, you shouldn't make todos. If you're the kind of person who hates them, you should." It seems obvious after it being mentioned, but I noticed a useful corollary: a list of done tasks actually makes me unhappy. So I avoid todo pages where a done list is visible. Hiding done tasks (i.e. archiving done cards on Trello, deleting a row on your todo list instead of strikethrough), etc. has led me to use it better. This isn't your problem, clearly, but just wanted to share a useful tip.
- hnick 6y ago
  Maybe the concept of the "wall of awful" will help you understand it more. I struggle with it too though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo08uS904Rg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo08uS904Rg
- JohnBooty 6y ago
  Same boat. It's not a magic cure, but my semi-okay-coping mechanism is to make daily to-do lists. The key though, is not just "making to-do lists".... it's right-sizing the items on them. Every task should have a finite end state and (this is crucial) shouldn't be longer than 15-20 minutes or so. If they are longer than that, it almost certainly needs to be broken down into constituent tasks. So even something like "clean my office" probably needs to be broken down a little more -- when I'm on my game I break it down into "vac office", "dust office", "organize desk drawer", etc. This pairs nicely with the "Pomodoro method" if you've ever tried it.

ardy42 6y ago

I'm like the OP. The distinction I make is: 1) A tough project can be engrossing. Getting started is always tough, but after that it's relatively easy to keep up momentum. 2) Menial tasks are not engrossing and are usually quick, so they require a level of attention control to stay focused on them that I'm just not capable of. It's like "getting started" over and over.

01100011 6y ago

Yeah I feel like I hide in those tasks to achieve a sense of accomplishment while also avoiding the uncomfortable task I should be working on. Then again, those tasks help me pass the time until the deadline for the important task is close enough to generate the fear/anxiety necessary for me to work on it.

TheTrotters 6y ago
And it's so satisfying to something that gives you physical feedback (doing dishes, vacuuming). Most of my day is spend doing math or programming so all my works takes place on a computer, a piece of paper, or in my head.

curiousllama 6y ago

I'm 100% the same - I once accidentally trained for a marathon.

I_AM_A_SMURF 6y ago

My completely ignorant theory is that it's still about "can only do the things I really like to do" part of ADHD. I also like to clean up my place because of the sense of accomplishment that it gives me (especially when at work I don't feel like I'm making progress because I spent all day coaching/meetings/etc) but not everyone might feel like that, I can definitely think of someone with ADHD that doesn't like to clean up the same way I don't like plan my meals (please don't make me do it).

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

The pop-science definition of ADHD has started to stray very far from the science. There’s a growing tendency for newly diagnosed ADHD patients to try to explain all of their mental habits and preferences through the lens of ADHD. Some times they have helpful feedback for other people with similar habits, but other times they just paint ADHD with an overly broad brush. They often have unrealistically lofty ideals of what a non-ADHD person looks like, or describe basic human nature as ADHD (for example: it's perfectly normal if you'd prefer to play video games than do your homework. We've all been there, ADHD or not) One thing I would recommend: Don’t let an ADHD diagnosis define your personality. A diagnosis is simply a guide map for treatment. It shouldn’t become a stereotype that defines you as a person. Use the diagnosis to learn techniques to overcome difficulties, but don’t let the diagnosis become a convenient excuse to let yourself off the hook or explain away concerns that would be better served by some personal growth.

throwawaydhd 6y ago
> There’s a growing tendency for newly diagnosed ADHD patients to try to explain all of their mental habits and preferences through the lens of ADHD. I've noticed this a lot on the ADHD forums. Agreed, it's uncomfortable to read. Personally, I'm very embarrassed and ashamed of my ADHD (hence the throwaway account here), so I try to minimise what I consider its scope as much as I can. When I was eventually diagnosed, even though I sought out being investigated for ADHD, I was disappointed! I said to the psychiatrist, I was hoping you'd tell me it's something else. But no, it was ADHD, and the medication does help. Also if I am explaining it to someone for whatever reason, I'll make sure to point out that it might be a reason for some things, but not an excuse. I hate the thought of not taking responsibility. I mean, it's still my broken brain at fault, even if I didn't break it myself.
rubicon33 6y ago
"Don’t let an ADHD diagnosis define your personality." "... but don’t let the diagnosis become a convenient excuse to let yourself off the hook or explain away concerns that would be better served by some personal growth" I totally understand this perspective and I do think it's a healthy one, but, where do you draw the line? I've been diagnosed with ADHD but personally hate the diagnosis. I don't want to be viewed through that lens, nor do I want to view myself that way. That said, there's just no denying that I'm a different (better) person when I'm treating the condition. I get more work done. I fight less with my wife. I'm way less frustrated angry on a daily basis, etc. Small tasks that normally seem like mountains, become mole hills. I've done counseling and I've done exercise, diet, sleep. I've seen the most dramatic results when I've just accepted I have ADHD and taken medication. Yet comments like yours re-ignite my desire quit taking the medications, and return to what feels normal ... even if feeling normal was so bad for me. What I'm trying to say is ... I think some people DO need to lean into the diagnosis. Accept that it's part of their life. If treatment improves your life, don't shy away from it. I don't know. I'm still just trying to figure it all out myself. I hate the idea of being "ADHD" but I'm starting to form the belief that I need to do what's right for my future, and my family, even if it means accepting I have a condition that requires something as dramatic as taking medication.