4 ms·

Well I guess we are discussing different angles of this matter, I actually didn't thought that my comment would go to the top since it was supposed to be a rand

Well I guess we are discussing different angles of this matter, I actually didn't thought that my comment would go to the top since it was supposed to be a random naive statement. I'm not about making things that simple by default, but I don't like those absolutist titles like "Never use MongoDB", also because the years since 2013 actually proved the article to be kind of wrong. "Never do X" is what I tell to children about matters that they wouldn't be able to understand, and making a point like "we used an immature tool that wasn't the best choice for what we were building, and on top of that we used it wrong, so you random guy should never use it for anything, ever" sounds like fearmongering to me and it's not something suitable to my taste. But I get your downvote :+1:

systemvoltage 6y ago
Indeed, never do X is pretty strong and needs equally strong arguments to back it up. But it can be true. There are tools that are superseded by better ones. Equally, it’s important to also tone down “X is nothing but the best” and praises should also require equal and opposite constructivism.
jeff-davis 6y ago
I agree that absolute statements like "never" obscure useful discussion. I would reword your comment as: "If you are building something and excited, then keep going, don't stop because a blog told you 'never'". I think that's what your main point was, and it's a good one.
pdimitar 6y ago
Criticism must have context so your statement was indeed a bit naive and too generic. In the case of MongoDB, many people thought that with it you'll have all of the benefits of, say, PostgreSQL, without having to think much about your data schema. History has shown that this is not the case -- as usual, it's about tradeoffs. There are no absolute wins: if you want an RDBMS, you have to put more work in X, if you want a document store then you have to try really hard with Y. "MongoDB vs. RDBMS" is a very old and tired argument by now but it basically boils down to: people started using MongoDB wide-eyed, optimistically and with more enthusiasm than engineering skill and of course, there were harsh reality checks.
- ATsch 6y ago
  > people started using MongoDB wide-eyed, optimistically and with more enthusiasm than engineering skill and of course, there were harsh reality checks It should be noted that VCs also burnt a lot of marketing money to deliberately create that blind enthusiasm and optimism.
- 01acheru 6y ago
  Each one of us has his or her own way of expressing opinions, from my point of view there is more than just those three lines of text in what I wrote, some people got it, other people didn't, and that's what I find great about HN comments. I really appreciate that people took the time to express their opinions starting from a simple statement like the one I wrote, and I don't think that each and every comment needs to be a complete analysis of every possible nuance of the subject we are commenting about. I'm not a monolithic person, I prefer a conversational approach when discussing opinions, but that's just a matter of personal taste. Anyway, to make my point I'll use as an example two projects I was personally involved and still bring food on the table: NodeJS + MongoDB (started 7 years ago, still on it); MariaDB + PHP + FORTRAN (started 4 years ago, after the first two years only consulting from time to time). Fun fact: right now I could swap one DB for the other and I wouldn't mind the difference, maybe some minor tricks here and there. You can get burned with MongoDB (totally inconsistent data model? Well, that sucks bad), you can get burned with PostgreSQL or other SQL databases (thousand line long business critical stored procedures starts getting inefficient? Self join time explodes after some time in production? Ouch...) The main point I wanted to make is what jeff-davis (your sibling) summarized for me with words way better than my own: "If you are building something and excited, then keep going, don't stop because a blog told you 'never'" Too often I read blog posts like the one we are commenting when I was starting with software development as a job, they scared the shit out of me! I didn't have any experience on the tools so reading that some much more experienced guy working on some Silicon Valley billion dollar corporation was saying "This is shit: you touch it, you die" didn't bring anything useful to me, just stress... Over the years I've heard everything and its contrary about... anything! There is normal people here on HN, there are young devs starting right now that read those comments, not everyone is building mission critical rocket firmware, billion users social networks or AI/ML/Blockchain fanta-finance trading bots (not that you are implying anything like that, far from it) but my advice after some years in the business is what I wrote: know your tools, get to like them, get proficient, use them well and try to build something good... your personal experience, be it success or failure, is worth a thousand times more than the success or failure narrated on a random guy/girl blog from N years ago

systemvoltage 6y ago

Indeed, never do X is pretty strong and needs equally strong arguments to back it up. But it can be true. There are tools that are superseded by better ones. Equally, it’s important to also tone down “X is nothing but the best” and praises should also require equal and opposite constructivism.

jeff-davis 6y ago

I agree that absolute statements like "never" obscure useful discussion. I would reword your comment as: "If you are building something and excited, then keep going, don't stop because a blog told you 'never'". I think that's what your main point was, and it's a good one.

pdimitar 6y ago

Criticism must have context so your statement was indeed a bit naive and too generic. In the case of MongoDB, many people thought that with it you'll have all of the benefits of, say, PostgreSQL, without having to think much about your data schema. History has shown that this is not the case -- as usual, it's about tradeoffs. There are no absolute wins: if you want an RDBMS, you have to put more work in X, if you want a document store then you have to try really hard with Y. "MongoDB vs. RDBMS" is a very old and tired argument by now but it basically boils down to: people started using MongoDB wide-eyed, optimistically and with more enthusiasm than engineering skill and of course, there were harsh reality checks.

ATsch 6y ago
> people started using MongoDB wide-eyed, optimistically and with more enthusiasm than engineering skill and of course, there were harsh reality checks It should be noted that VCs also burnt a lot of marketing money to deliberately create that blind enthusiasm and optimism.
01acheru 6y ago
Each one of us has his or her own way of expressing opinions, from my point of view there is more than just those three lines of text in what I wrote, some people got it, other people didn't, and that's what I find great about HN comments. I really appreciate that people took the time to express their opinions starting from a simple statement like the one I wrote, and I don't think that each and every comment needs to be a complete analysis of every possible nuance of the subject we are commenting about. I'm not a monolithic person, I prefer a conversational approach when discussing opinions, but that's just a matter of personal taste. Anyway, to make my point I'll use as an example two projects I was personally involved and still bring food on the table: NodeJS + MongoDB (started 7 years ago, still on it); MariaDB + PHP + FORTRAN (started 4 years ago, after the first two years only consulting from time to time). Fun fact: right now I could swap one DB for the other and I wouldn't mind the difference, maybe some minor tricks here and there. You can get burned with MongoDB (totally inconsistent data model? Well, that sucks bad), you can get burned with PostgreSQL or other SQL databases (thousand line long business critical stored procedures starts getting inefficient? Self join time explodes after some time in production? Ouch...) The main point I wanted to make is what jeff-davis (your sibling) summarized for me with words way better than my own: "If you are building something and excited, then keep going, don't stop because a blog told you 'never'" Too often I read blog posts like the one we are commenting when I was starting with software development as a job, they scared the shit out of me! I didn't have any experience on the tools so reading that some much more experienced guy working on some Silicon Valley billion dollar corporation was saying "This is shit: you touch it, you die" didn't bring anything useful to me, just stress... Over the years I've heard everything and its contrary about... anything! There is normal people here on HN, there are young devs starting right now that read those comments, not everyone is building mission critical rocket firmware, billion users social networks or AI/ML/Blockchain fanta-finance trading bots (not that you are implying anything like that, far from it) but my advice after some years in the business is what I wrote: know your tools, get to like them, get proficient, use them well and try to build something good... your personal experience, be it success or failure, is worth a thousand times more than the success or failure narrated on a random guy/girl blog from N years ago