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Germany is a leader in solar power. They installed more panels last year than the rest of the world combined. They generate more electricity from solar than Fuk

by latch 15y ago

Germany is a leader in solar power. They installed more panels last year than the rest of the world combined. They generate more electricity from solar than Fukushima did. If they can further establish themselves as leaders and experts in new-energy, it'll make them even more disproportionally well positioned to most of Europe. However, it's a shame they see no future in nuclear. Seems like they are betting against something we've just scratched the surface of (my money is on Thorium)..for the wrong reasons. The damage from the oil and coal that they burn is far worse.

seabee 15y ago
> They generate more electricity from solar than Fukushima did. The problem is that a country requires many Fukushimas (in Germany's case, 17). If renewables cannot fill the gap left by shutting down nuclear, you'll have to import your electricity from other countries generating it by the very method you phased out, or by even worse methods like coal. Being the leader in renewables doesn't change this fact. > Seems like they are betting against something... Political decisions are rarely that longsighted. One can hope, though.
- latch 15y ago
  I'm not saying there isn't a problem with their plan. Just trying to point out that of all the countries who could pull it off, Germany would probably be my first pick. And it isn't just because of solar...they have aggressive energy goals in place already (some before 2022) which makes me think that Germany has an energy plan the likes of which I never saw while in Canada..and certainly not now that I'm in Asia.
  - seabee 15y ago
    Germany are definitely on the right track. I just believe this policy has nothing to do with it, unless you can argue that nuclear is worse than coal, or that importing electricity from nuclear-powered countries achieves something that domestic production does not.
- lispm 15y ago
  Fukushima I was a site with SIX reactors. German nuclear sites are usually smaller. Off these 17 German reactors currently 13 are off the grid. Germany has had an overcapacity and was a net exporter of electricity. It is also no longer that electricity is bound to countries here in Germany. We have a Europe wide market and electricity is imported based on needs and price. If electricity is cheaper somewhere, we may import that. When our wind parks flood the grid, we have to lower the price and export that.
  - seabee 15y ago
    > Off these 17 German reactors currently 13 are off the grid. A significant number were pulled off the grid in the wake of Fukushima. So while it's true they had an overcapacity, it's not the case anymore. [1] How quickly can renewables close that gap? And does renewables provide for cheap electricity? If you're importing based on price, it's not coming from wind or solar. So where exactly is the environmental benefit, other than to make it someone else's problem (i.e. getting France to hide away more spent fuel rods)? Being an exporter with renewables is definitely a matter of 'when'. It's foolish to pretend the years between now and then don't exist, they have consequences too. [1] http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Germany-net-energy-importer-apf-1665949417.html?x=0 http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Germany-net-energy-importer-ap...
    - lispm 15y ago
      You are aware that several of the nuclear power plants will be brought online again? You are also aware that the phase out time is TEN years? In the last ten years we have added ten percent renewable energy as a new source and jump started a new industry with several hundred thousand jobs. I'm pretty sure that in ten years we can build new capacity to replace the remaining nuclear reactors. Actually there are several reports from German Universities and research institutions which all agree that this is possible. What you cite from Yahoo is old news. The Nuclear Industry was happily publishing this. But the case is that a) some of the nuclear power plants will be brought back, so there is no power shortage. The phase out will be done in about ten years. b) Germany always imports nuclear power, since there is a free energy market. Germany also exports all kinds of electricity (nuclear, coal, wind, ...). c) the providers of Nuclear power fear their loss of market power. They are large monopolists which try to prevent competition. There are many smaller providers waiting with their investments, keen to replace them where and when possible.
mixmax 15y ago
The problem with wind and solar energy is that you can't plan for when you need power, and you can't feasibly store large amounts of electricity. This means that wind and solar can't be the primary powersource, at least until the storage problem is solved which doesn't seem to be on the horizon. On windy sunny days you'll have too much electricity and on windless nights you won't have enough. There's a EU project underway to scale up powerlines so that electricity can be moved across the EU as needed. The thinking is that it's always windy somewhere, and though you can't store electricity you can move it without too much loss. So if the wind is blowing in Portugal they can export theis excess power to a windless Denmark and vice versa.
- timdorr 15y ago
  Actually, MIT solved the storage problem 2 years ago. It's just got to make it's way to market: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html
  - mixmax 15y ago
    Very interesting article. Unfortunately there's usually a long way from the lab to industrial production, but of course if you don't try you won't succeed.
- lispm 15y ago
  Germany is currently planning to build two HVDC (High-Voltage Direct Current) lines to Norway. They will provide us here in North Germany with Hydro backup. There is a lot of research going on in new storage systems. In solar thermal power plants, there is already storage. It is not that Germany switches over night to renewable. The shutdown process of the nuclear power plants will take ten years. The plan for the 100% deployment of renewable energy has a target of 2050. Without a goal, nothing will happen. Germany sets a goal and the framework to reach it.
  - woodpanel 15y ago
    Who in Germany has those plans!? No one. Norway proposed them to Germany, to the Netherlands and Great Britain. None of these HVDC are currently even close to be projected. Of course, they'd be glad if Germans elect a Government that will force it's citizens to buy the luxury of clean norwegian energy.
Argorak 15y ago
Germany is also one of the main suppliers for regenerating power technologies. So they do have an industry branch that benefits from that move.
- woodpanel 15y ago
  Highly subsidized industry. Everytime the government tries to reduce the subsidies, our glorious greentech-companies are near bankcrupcy. [ http://boerse.ard.de/content.jsp?key=dokument_533948 http://boerse.ard.de/content.jsp?key=dokument_533948 = "German solar panel companies loose millions" ]
  - lispm 15y ago
    Compare that to the fate of Tepco. How much was the government give them to survive?

by latch 15y ago

seabee 15y ago

> They generate more electricity from solar than Fukushima did. The problem is that a country requires many Fukushimas (in Germany's case, 17). If renewables cannot fill the gap left by shutting down nuclear, you'll have to import your electricity from other countries generating it by the very method you phased out, or by even worse methods like coal. Being the leader in renewables doesn't change this fact. > Seems like they are betting against something... Political decisions are rarely that longsighted. One can hope, though.

latch 15y ago
I'm not saying there isn't a problem with their plan. Just trying to point out that of all the countries who could pull it off, Germany would probably be my first pick. And it isn't just because of solar...they have aggressive energy goals in place already (some before 2022) which makes me think that Germany has an energy plan the likes of which I never saw while in Canada..and certainly not now that I'm in Asia.
- seabee 15y ago
  Germany are definitely on the right track. I just believe this policy has nothing to do with it, unless you can argue that nuclear is worse than coal, or that importing electricity from nuclear-powered countries achieves something that domestic production does not.
lispm 15y ago
Fukushima I was a site with SIX reactors. German nuclear sites are usually smaller. Off these 17 German reactors currently 13 are off the grid. Germany has had an overcapacity and was a net exporter of electricity. It is also no longer that electricity is bound to countries here in Germany. We have a Europe wide market and electricity is imported based on needs and price. If electricity is cheaper somewhere, we may import that. When our wind parks flood the grid, we have to lower the price and export that.
- seabee 15y ago
  > Off these 17 German reactors currently 13 are off the grid. A significant number were pulled off the grid in the wake of Fukushima. So while it's true they had an overcapacity, it's not the case anymore. [1] How quickly can renewables close that gap? And does renewables provide for cheap electricity? If you're importing based on price, it's not coming from wind or solar. So where exactly is the environmental benefit, other than to make it someone else's problem (i.e. getting France to hide away more spent fuel rods)? Being an exporter with renewables is definitely a matter of 'when'. It's foolish to pretend the years between now and then don't exist, they have consequences too. [1] http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Germany-net-energy-importer-apf-1665949417.html?x=0 http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Germany-net-energy-importer-ap...
  - lispm 15y ago
    You are aware that several of the nuclear power plants will be brought online again? You are also aware that the phase out time is TEN years? In the last ten years we have added ten percent renewable energy as a new source and jump started a new industry with several hundred thousand jobs. I'm pretty sure that in ten years we can build new capacity to replace the remaining nuclear reactors. Actually there are several reports from German Universities and research institutions which all agree that this is possible. What you cite from Yahoo is old news. The Nuclear Industry was happily publishing this. But the case is that a) some of the nuclear power plants will be brought back, so there is no power shortage. The phase out will be done in about ten years. b) Germany always imports nuclear power, since there is a free energy market. Germany also exports all kinds of electricity (nuclear, coal, wind, ...). c) the providers of Nuclear power fear their loss of market power. They are large monopolists which try to prevent competition. There are many smaller providers waiting with their investments, keen to replace them where and when possible.

mixmax 15y ago

The problem with wind and solar energy is that you can't plan for when you need power, and you can't feasibly store large amounts of electricity. This means that wind and solar can't be the primary powersource, at least until the storage problem is solved which doesn't seem to be on the horizon. On windy sunny days you'll have too much electricity and on windless nights you won't have enough. There's a EU project underway to scale up powerlines so that electricity can be moved across the EU as needed. The thinking is that it's always windy somewhere, and though you can't store electricity you can move it without too much loss. So if the wind is blowing in Portugal they can export theis excess power to a windless Denmark and vice versa.

timdorr 15y ago
Actually, MIT solved the storage problem 2 years ago. It's just got to make it's way to market: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html
- mixmax 15y ago
  Very interesting article. Unfortunately there's usually a long way from the lab to industrial production, but of course if you don't try you won't succeed.
lispm 15y ago
Germany is currently planning to build two HVDC (High-Voltage Direct Current) lines to Norway. They will provide us here in North Germany with Hydro backup. There is a lot of research going on in new storage systems. In solar thermal power plants, there is already storage. It is not that Germany switches over night to renewable. The shutdown process of the nuclear power plants will take ten years. The plan for the 100% deployment of renewable energy has a target of 2050. Without a goal, nothing will happen. Germany sets a goal and the framework to reach it.
- woodpanel 15y ago
  Who in Germany has those plans!? No one. Norway proposed them to Germany, to the Netherlands and Great Britain. None of these HVDC are currently even close to be projected. Of course, they'd be glad if Germans elect a Government that will force it's citizens to buy the luxury of clean norwegian energy.

Argorak 15y ago

Germany is also one of the main suppliers for regenerating power technologies. So they do have an industry branch that benefits from that move.

woodpanel 15y ago
Highly subsidized industry. Everytime the government tries to reduce the subsidies, our glorious greentech-companies are near bankcrupcy. [ http://boerse.ard.de/content.jsp?key=dokument_533948 http://boerse.ard.de/content.jsp?key=dokument_533948 = "German solar panel companies loose millions" ]
- lispm 15y ago
  Compare that to the fate of Tepco. How much was the government give them to survive?