8 ms·

Roughly 4% of the money Germany will give Russia will be used to kill Ukrainians and stage wars like in Georgia. Russia spends around 4% GDP on their army. Ot

Roughly 4% of the money Germany will give Russia will be used to kill Ukrainians and stage wars like in Georgia. Russia spends around 4% GDP on their army. Otherwise, why shouldn't we buy oil e.g. from Islamic State if it manages to reappear?

nwellnhof 6y ago
Germany has purchased gas from the Soviet Union throughout the cold war. If it wasn't a problem then, why should it be a problem now? Also companies like Gazprom aren't 100% state-owned and only pay a fraction of their revenue to the Russian state. Your 4% calculation is way off.
- jgilias 6y ago
  Yes. And the part that is not paid to the Russian state goes to fill the pockets of Putin and his cronies directly. And then is being spent on things like fancy estates in Russia and abroad, as well as mercenaries taking part in conflicts in which the Putin's regime wants to have plausible deniability.
- totalZero 6y ago
  Of course Germany purchased gas from the USSR throughout the Cold War. Half of Germany was part of the Eastern Bloc. What kind of argument is that? But Nord Stream didn't exist back then. And I think that's the really problematic issue for Germany. It's one thing to buy fossil fuels on the open market, and another entirely to lay out tons of infrastructure spending to solidify your dependency on an adversary.
  - vkou 6y ago
    Western Germany purchased gas and oil from the USSR. It's actually a very good argument, because it points out something that most people aren't aware of. Generally speaking, Germany's foreign policy is deeply tied to its energy policy. It's one of the reasons for its interest in renewables. I will also note that, say, Thatcher's UK purchased coal from Warsaw Pact Poland in order to crush strikes by domestic coal miners.
    - totalZero 6y ago
      I think it's a poor argument. "Germany, which was halfway a Soviet satellite state, bought fuel from the USSR forty years ago, therefore all German purchases of Russian fossil fuels are perpetually justifiable." What kind of world do you live in where you resist a clear need for self-preserving adaptation to the new reality, simply based on past behavior during a time of upheaval and fragmentation?
      - iSnow 6y ago
        Western Germany was not halfway a Soviet satellite but firmly in NATO - coincidentally the nation where the IRBMs to take out Moscow would have been launched. And yet it bought gas from the USSR which had been super correct and never tried using it for leverage against Western Germany. Eastern Germany was an own nation and they got preferencial prices for gas from the USSR as part of their block.
      - vkou 6y ago
        I should have paid better attention in history class, because I have never before heard of Western Germany being described as 'halfway a Soviet Satellite state'. Should I run this theory by my German friends, to see what their take on the subject is? I have, however, lived in both East and West, and I have to say, the new reality of Russia's imperial ambitions are... A bit more tempered than the USSR's imperial ambitions over most of its existence. Now, if my historical and political education only came from modern political pundits, I might see the events of the past decade as something entirely unexpected, unprecedented, and existential. They aren't, though. They rarely are. The pundits see every crisis as unexpected, unprecedented, and existential. We wouldn't have much use for them if they didn't.
  - andi999 6y ago
    Actually West Germany purchased gas from USSR from 1973 onwards: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/energieabhaengigkeit-von-russland-die-deutschen-und-das-russische-gas-12871459.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/energieabhaengigk...
    - baybal2 6y ago
      Well if it goes so, USA bought USSR's oil! And that was used as the biggest red flag pointing on hollowness of its international policies.
- georgeplusplus 6y ago
  Did you forget that Germany was split east and west and east was totally owned by the Russians? Of course they bought from them.
- Isinlor 6y ago
  Gazprom is 50% owned by the Russian state. Overall, gas and oil account for roughly 50% of Russia budget.
vkou 6y ago
Well, we were buying goods from other world powers that were waging wars that killed hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east... Without getting too bogged down in the very complicated ethical questions of nation states killing people, a key difference between trading with ISIS and trading with belligerents in other wars, is that the entirety of the world was at war with ISIS. [1] [1] Peruse the "Opponents" section of the table on the right hand side. As far as I can tell, combining the State Opponents and "Many Others" sections gets you a list of just about every country in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_...
- Isinlor 6y ago
  To paraphrase the top comment: Hmm. But... ISIS has oil. Germany wants oil. ISIS wants to sell it. Germany is willing to buy it. All sounds rather simple and commercial to me. If there’s a concern about ISIS influence then the only real solution is to invest further in more diversified sources - eg via The Mediterranean so that multiple supplies exist in the event of geo-political strains. That's just silly. If you want ISIS to not wage wars then you do not buy oil from them. If you want Russia to not kill Ukrainians and annex parts of countries in Europe then you do not buy oil or gas from them.
iSnow 6y ago
Considering we all are buying oil from Mohammed "bonesaw" Salman's Saudi Arabia which likely financed a lot of islamist terror, I am not sure the difference is that big.
- Isinlor 6y ago
  Yes, and the world should not be buying oil from Saudis either. The biggest grey zone here is USA. Europe should have certainly not participated in USA wars in the Middle East.
- Amezarak 6y ago
  Of course the murder of Khashoggi was wrong, but I tire of hearing it used as an example when Saudi Arabia is responsible for legions of humans of rights violations and war crimes against millions of people. A well-heeled, very well-connected ex-Saudi intelligence officer and nephew of an Iran-Contra arms dealer was assassinated by a dictator after founding an anti-regime organization overseas and being funded by unknown sources. When you say it like that, it sounds a little different than the usual narrative of the Washington Post columnist murdered for his column - if anything, I would like to know why western media is hiring foreign intelligence officers.
lenkite 6y ago
Isn't this comparison a bit over the top in hysteria ? Will you also be calculating the money the world gives to China to carry out genocide in Xinjiang next ?

nwellnhof 6y ago

Germany has purchased gas from the Soviet Union throughout the cold war. If it wasn't a problem then, why should it be a problem now? Also companies like Gazprom aren't 100% state-owned and only pay a fraction of their revenue to the Russian state. Your 4% calculation is way off.

jgilias 6y ago
Yes. And the part that is not paid to the Russian state goes to fill the pockets of Putin and his cronies directly. And then is being spent on things like fancy estates in Russia and abroad, as well as mercenaries taking part in conflicts in which the Putin's regime wants to have plausible deniability.
totalZero 6y ago
Of course Germany purchased gas from the USSR throughout the Cold War. Half of Germany was part of the Eastern Bloc. What kind of argument is that? But Nord Stream didn't exist back then. And I think that's the really problematic issue for Germany. It's one thing to buy fossil fuels on the open market, and another entirely to lay out tons of infrastructure spending to solidify your dependency on an adversary.
- vkou 6y ago
  Western Germany purchased gas and oil from the USSR. It's actually a very good argument, because it points out something that most people aren't aware of. Generally speaking, Germany's foreign policy is deeply tied to its energy policy. It's one of the reasons for its interest in renewables. I will also note that, say, Thatcher's UK purchased coal from Warsaw Pact Poland in order to crush strikes by domestic coal miners.
  - totalZero 6y ago
    I think it's a poor argument. "Germany, which was halfway a Soviet satellite state, bought fuel from the USSR forty years ago, therefore all German purchases of Russian fossil fuels are perpetually justifiable." What kind of world do you live in where you resist a clear need for self-preserving adaptation to the new reality, simply based on past behavior during a time of upheaval and fragmentation?
    - iSnow 6y ago
      Western Germany was not halfway a Soviet satellite but firmly in NATO - coincidentally the nation where the IRBMs to take out Moscow would have been launched. And yet it bought gas from the USSR which had been super correct and never tried using it for leverage against Western Germany. Eastern Germany was an own nation and they got preferencial prices for gas from the USSR as part of their block.
    - vkou 6y ago
      I should have paid better attention in history class, because I have never before heard of Western Germany being described as 'halfway a Soviet Satellite state'. Should I run this theory by my German friends, to see what their take on the subject is? I have, however, lived in both East and West, and I have to say, the new reality of Russia's imperial ambitions are... A bit more tempered than the USSR's imperial ambitions over most of its existence. Now, if my historical and political education only came from modern political pundits, I might see the events of the past decade as something entirely unexpected, unprecedented, and existential. They aren't, though. They rarely are. The pundits see every crisis as unexpected, unprecedented, and existential. We wouldn't have much use for them if they didn't.
- andi999 6y ago
  Actually West Germany purchased gas from USSR from 1973 onwards: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/energieabhaengigkeit-von-russland-die-deutschen-und-das-russische-gas-12871459.html https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/energieabhaengigk...
  - baybal2 6y ago
    Well if it goes so, USA bought USSR's oil! And that was used as the biggest red flag pointing on hollowness of its international policies.
georgeplusplus 6y ago
Did you forget that Germany was split east and west and east was totally owned by the Russians? Of course they bought from them.
Isinlor 6y ago
Gazprom is 50% owned by the Russian state. Overall, gas and oil account for roughly 50% of Russia budget.

vkou 6y ago

Well, we were buying goods from other world powers that were waging wars that killed hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east... Without getting too bogged down in the very complicated ethical questions of nation states killing people, a key difference between trading with ISIS and trading with belligerents in other wars, is that the entirety of the world was at war with ISIS. [1] [1] Peruse the "Opponents" section of the table on the right hand side. As far as I can tell, combining the State Opponents and "Many Others" sections gets you a list of just about every country in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_...

Isinlor 6y ago
To paraphrase the top comment: Hmm. But... ISIS has oil. Germany wants oil. ISIS wants to sell it. Germany is willing to buy it. All sounds rather simple and commercial to me. If there’s a concern about ISIS influence then the only real solution is to invest further in more diversified sources - eg via The Mediterranean so that multiple supplies exist in the event of geo-political strains. That's just silly. If you want ISIS to not wage wars then you do not buy oil from them. If you want Russia to not kill Ukrainians and annex parts of countries in Europe then you do not buy oil or gas from them.

iSnow 6y ago

Considering we all are buying oil from Mohammed "bonesaw" Salman's Saudi Arabia which likely financed a lot of islamist terror, I am not sure the difference is that big.

Isinlor 6y ago
Yes, and the world should not be buying oil from Saudis either. The biggest grey zone here is USA. Europe should have certainly not participated in USA wars in the Middle East.
Amezarak 6y ago
Of course the murder of Khashoggi was wrong, but I tire of hearing it used as an example when Saudi Arabia is responsible for legions of humans of rights violations and war crimes against millions of people. A well-heeled, very well-connected ex-Saudi intelligence officer and nephew of an Iran-Contra arms dealer was assassinated by a dictator after founding an anti-regime organization overseas and being funded by unknown sources. When you say it like that, it sounds a little different than the usual narrative of the Washington Post columnist murdered for his column - if anything, I would like to know why western media is hiring foreign intelligence officers.

lenkite 6y ago

Isn't this comparison a bit over the top in hysteria ? Will you also be calculating the money the world gives to China to carry out genocide in Xinjiang next ?