3 ms·

I wouldn't argue that returning to hyper non hygiene would be better, but there has been a steady and remarkable rise in Autoimmune diseases, allergies, and ast

by wpasc 6y ago

I wouldn't argue that returning to hyper non hygiene would be better, but there has been a steady and remarkable rise in Autoimmune diseases, allergies, and asthma in the last few decades. Each of these conditions have long term consequences and complications. The hygiene hypothesis link to the microbiome and "training" of the immune system link is plausible and more and more research is backing it up. Moreover, given that the immune system and inflammation continue to be found to have a role in virtually every long term disease, the hygiene hypothesis should not be taken lightly. There are a variety of sources backing up my points, you can look around; just note i am NOT saying that any of the links are certain, just that the amount of evidence that does exist far surpasses the point where the hygiene hypothesis is dubious IMO, IANAD.

jnxx 6y ago
> The hygiene hypothesis link to the microbiome and "training" of the immune system link is plausible and more and more research is backing it up. There is also the hypothesis that the plague epidemics caused a shift to autoimmune diseases because it needed humanity to shift to a more trigger-happy immune system. Another factor could be the much better state of nutrition than in the old times. Malnutrition has massive negative effects on the immune response, and nutrition was pretty shaky for much of human history, so better nutrition could also cause some autoimmune issues.
TomSwirly 6y ago
The American obsession with cleanliness dates to the 1950s, so I'm a little confused as to what your argument is here. > that the amount of evidence that does exist Such as? It would be nice to see some actual evidence and not simply guilt by association.
- wpasc 6y ago
  Please note, i am not claiming certainty and there are studies that point against the hygiene hypothesis. I am just stating that there is a growing body of evidence for the links between household cleanliness (and use of certain household cleaning products) and microbiome disruption. And links between microbiome disruption and prevalence of disease. For the American obsession with cleanliness in the 1950's, two things: autoimmune is hard to diagnose and many suffered in silence for decades AND cleaning up a lot is distinctly different from the proliferation of chemically based cleaning products many of which containing anti bacterial ingredients. Many look at the trend of autoimmune rise starting in the 70's and 80's. Let's say you're right about the 50's cleanliness, the children born then might not have been diagnosed, the cleanliness trend started then but built up to have large effect over 20-30 years, and/or it took time for chemicals to proliferate into household daily cleaning. I am NOT a tin foil hat wearer. I have an autoimmune disease and have researched the topic a lot. I am claiming NO certainty, just that the immune system is woefully insufficiently understood and that links with growing evidence should NOT be ignored. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/apm.12023 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/apm.12023 https://oem.bmj.com/content/74/9/684.abstract https://oem.bmj.com/content/74/9/684.abstract https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200612-1793OC https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200612-179... https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.201707882 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.201707882 https://www.cmaj.ca/content/190/37/E1097?_ga=2.113661191.1490908815.1539388800-1636001196.1539388800 https://www.cmaj.ca/content/190/37/E1097?_ga=2.113661191.149... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0171298507000332 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01712... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0171298507000393 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01712...

by wpasc 6y ago

jnxx 6y ago

> The hygiene hypothesis link to the microbiome and "training" of the immune system link is plausible and more and more research is backing it up. There is also the hypothesis that the plague epidemics caused a shift to autoimmune diseases because it needed humanity to shift to a more trigger-happy immune system. Another factor could be the much better state of nutrition than in the old times. Malnutrition has massive negative effects on the immune response, and nutrition was pretty shaky for much of human history, so better nutrition could also cause some autoimmune issues.

TomSwirly 6y ago

The American obsession with cleanliness dates to the 1950s, so I'm a little confused as to what your argument is here. > that the amount of evidence that does exist Such as? It would be nice to see some actual evidence and not simply guilt by association.

wpasc 6y ago
Please note, i am not claiming certainty and there are studies that point against the hygiene hypothesis. I am just stating that there is a growing body of evidence for the links between household cleanliness (and use of certain household cleaning products) and microbiome disruption. And links between microbiome disruption and prevalence of disease. For the American obsession with cleanliness in the 1950's, two things: autoimmune is hard to diagnose and many suffered in silence for decades AND cleaning up a lot is distinctly different from the proliferation of chemically based cleaning products many of which containing anti bacterial ingredients. Many look at the trend of autoimmune rise starting in the 70's and 80's. Let's say you're right about the 50's cleanliness, the children born then might not have been diagnosed, the cleanliness trend started then but built up to have large effect over 20-30 years, and/or it took time for chemicals to proliferate into household daily cleaning. I am NOT a tin foil hat wearer. I have an autoimmune disease and have researched the topic a lot. I am claiming NO certainty, just that the immune system is woefully insufficiently understood and that links with growing evidence should NOT be ignored. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/apm.12023 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/apm.12023 https://oem.bmj.com/content/74/9/684.abstract https://oem.bmj.com/content/74/9/684.abstract https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200612-1793OC https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200612-179... https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.201707882 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.201707882 https://www.cmaj.ca/content/190/37/E1097?_ga=2.113661191.1490908815.1539388800-1636001196.1539388800 https://www.cmaj.ca/content/190/37/E1097?_ga=2.113661191.149... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0171298507000332 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01712... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0171298507000393 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01712...