5 ms·

Yet another news article that doesn't link the damn paper. "The hygiene hypothesis, the COVID pandemic, and consequences for the human microbiome" > This pand

by magnio 6y ago

Yet another news article that doesn't link the damn paper. "The hygiene hypothesis, the COVID pandemic, and consequences for the human microbiome" > This pandemic intersects with a decades-long decline in microbial diversity and ancestral microbes due to hygiene, antibiotics, and urban living (the hygiene hypothesis). High-risk groups succumbing to COVID-19 include those with preexisting conditions, such as diabetes and obesity, which are also associated with microbiome abnormalities. Current pandemic control measures and practices will have broad, uneven, and potentially long-term effects for the human microbiome across the planet, given the implementation of physical separation, extensive hygiene, travel barriers, and other measures that influence overall microbial loss and inability for reinoculation. Although much remains uncertain or unknown about the virus and its consequences, implementing pandemic control practices could significantly affect the microbiome. https://www.pnas.org/content/118/6/e2010217118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/6/e2010217118

mbg721 6y ago
It's interesting to me that urban living would be included in the hygiene hypothesis. Intuitively, I would expect all the extra contact and travel to increase exposure to microbes, compared to "everyone spends most of their time on their own farm".
- Robotbeat 6y ago
  Different kind of microbes. Human communicable diseases in cities, dirt microbes in farms.
  - mc32 6y ago
    Someone put forth the example of polio. It was endemic but not epidemic till the rise of cities facilitated transmission.
    - cperciva 6y ago
      Polio is a bit more complicated than that. It's usually harmless in infants; it became a major public health concern only when hygiene resulted in it being contracted later. Epstein-Barr is similar, causing mononucleosis in teenagers but only mild symptoms in children.
      - mc32 6y ago
        Thank you for the nuance. We have trade offs we have to consider. Hygiene on balance improves health, but it has unintended consequences which we have to be aware of and need to be addressed.
tootie 6y ago
Hygiene hypothesis still seems dubious to me. The notion that hygienic lifestyles can lead to a weaker immune system or microbiome is plausible, but I'd actually be pretty surprised if it translated into worse long-term outcomes like life expectancy. Being exposed to lots of pathogens can have some pretty big downsides. We're only just beginning to understand long-term COVID symptoms and it's possible we've missed long-term symptoms of lots of pathogens. I have had chronic canker sores my whole life (cause by retrovirus) that I definitely could live without. ERVs kinda freak me out too.
- GenerocUsername 6y ago
  Think of it this way: your body has machinery built to combat pathogens. If there are no pathogens to fight, the bar for what is considered a pathogen lowers until eventually those machines are attacking healthy tissue and can cause many issues. Allergies, Lupus, and many others are already caused by similar mechanisms, and pushing society into ever more clean states will likely lead to more issues. The only real cure would then be taking immune-suppresants. Or we just need to embrace that nasty bacteria are a natural environmental feature important to our homeostasis
  - wpasc 6y ago
    Agreed with this entirely, see my nearby comment.
  - pishpash 6y ago
    That's my hypothesis for how homo sapiens goes extinct -- becoming ever more dependent on nature-shaping or external machinery to augment weakened selection pressure, but very fragile to sudden changes and always fighting fires.
  - monopoledance 6y ago
    > a weaker immune system or microbiome is plausible > Think of it this way: ... OP already said it's plausible. Your image doesn't add to the evidence at all. The truth is, we have no idea about immune and gene regulation. A lot of the simplistic understanding you learn in school is falsely making people believe the body is a "machine" we can control or even comprehend. Medicine doesn't know shit. All we have, are some correlations with an increase in autoimmune disease, allergies and lymphoma, and increasing hygiene. Could also be microplastics or hormone disruptors, social isolation, stress, overweight, lack of sunlight, climate change... . The immune system is insanely complex and a huge bag of innovation and legacy making many functions redundant and incredibly hard to decipher. And some "healthy exposure" to pathogens really is a coin toss, as it may not be the contact, but surviving the sickness you benefit from. So a severe fever may slightly decrease your cancer risk, but comes at the risk of dying from, well, severe fever.
kwhitefoot 6y ago
Doesn't help. Unless you have an account it costs 10 USD to read it.
- newscracker 6y ago
  If it’s ok with you, you can get the DOI link listed there, paste it in SciHub and see if it’s available there.
- rolph 6y ago
  try this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27471720/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27471720/ or full text here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918254/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918254/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918254/pdf/itt-4-143.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918254/pdf/itt... [PDF] i turned my browser setting to no style for page rendering and i got breadcrumbs
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

by magnio 6y ago

mbg721 6y ago

It's interesting to me that urban living would be included in the hygiene hypothesis. Intuitively, I would expect all the extra contact and travel to increase exposure to microbes, compared to "everyone spends most of their time on their own farm".

Robotbeat 6y ago
Different kind of microbes. Human communicable diseases in cities, dirt microbes in farms.
- mc32 6y ago
  Someone put forth the example of polio. It was endemic but not epidemic till the rise of cities facilitated transmission.
  - cperciva 6y ago
    Polio is a bit more complicated than that. It's usually harmless in infants; it became a major public health concern only when hygiene resulted in it being contracted later. Epstein-Barr is similar, causing mononucleosis in teenagers but only mild symptoms in children.
    - mc32 6y ago
      Thank you for the nuance. We have trade offs we have to consider. Hygiene on balance improves health, but it has unintended consequences which we have to be aware of and need to be addressed.

tootie 6y ago

Hygiene hypothesis still seems dubious to me. The notion that hygienic lifestyles can lead to a weaker immune system or microbiome is plausible, but I'd actually be pretty surprised if it translated into worse long-term outcomes like life expectancy. Being exposed to lots of pathogens can have some pretty big downsides. We're only just beginning to understand long-term COVID symptoms and it's possible we've missed long-term symptoms of lots of pathogens. I have had chronic canker sores my whole life (cause by retrovirus) that I definitely could live without. ERVs kinda freak me out too.

GenerocUsername 6y ago
Think of it this way: your body has machinery built to combat pathogens. If there are no pathogens to fight, the bar for what is considered a pathogen lowers until eventually those machines are attacking healthy tissue and can cause many issues. Allergies, Lupus, and many others are already caused by similar mechanisms, and pushing society into ever more clean states will likely lead to more issues. The only real cure would then be taking immune-suppresants. Or we just need to embrace that nasty bacteria are a natural environmental feature important to our homeostasis
- wpasc 6y ago
  Agreed with this entirely, see my nearby comment.
- pishpash 6y ago
  That's my hypothesis for how homo sapiens goes extinct -- becoming ever more dependent on nature-shaping or external machinery to augment weakened selection pressure, but very fragile to sudden changes and always fighting fires.
- monopoledance 6y ago
  > a weaker immune system or microbiome is plausible > Think of it this way: ... OP already said it's plausible. Your image doesn't add to the evidence at all. The truth is, we have no idea about immune and gene regulation. A lot of the simplistic understanding you learn in school is falsely making people believe the body is a "machine" we can control or even comprehend. Medicine doesn't know shit. All we have, are some correlations with an increase in autoimmune disease, allergies and lymphoma, and increasing hygiene. Could also be microplastics or hormone disruptors, social isolation, stress, overweight, lack of sunlight, climate change... . The immune system is insanely complex and a huge bag of innovation and legacy making many functions redundant and incredibly hard to decipher. And some "healthy exposure" to pathogens really is a coin toss, as it may not be the contact, but surviving the sickness you benefit from. So a severe fever may slightly decrease your cancer risk, but comes at the risk of dying from, well, severe fever.

kwhitefoot 6y ago

Doesn't help. Unless you have an account it costs 10 USD to read it.

newscracker 6y ago
If it’s ok with you, you can get the DOI link listed there, paste it in SciHub and see if it’s available there.
rolph 6y ago
try this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27471720/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27471720/ or full text here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918254/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918254/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918254/pdf/itt-4-143.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918254/pdf/itt... [PDF] i turned my browser setting to no style for page rendering and i got breadcrumbs
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]