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Their claimed reasoning for seizing control is "election fraud". Sound familiar? This is why many of us internationals get concerned about American politics, b

by altacc 6y ago

Their claimed reasoning for seizing control is "election fraud". Sound familiar? This is why many of us internationals get concerned about American politics, because where America goes, others soon follow. Just like some countries used the "war on terror" branding to suppress democratic movements, it was only a matter of time before other authoritarians used "election fraud" to overthrow election results they didn't like. In Myanmar's case the junta's fraud issue is more likely to be that they didn't rig the system enough to their liking.

rendall 6y ago
Indeed. Trump's attack on the integrity of the 2020 election was irresponsible, as was the Democrats' on the 2016 election. I don't think Americans generally understand how fragile legitimacy is, and how important it is Russian diplomat turns meeting to support Belarus into an attack on Estonia "...After representatives had expressed concern for the situation in Belarus one after another and Estonian Minister of Foreign Affairs Urmas Reinsalu proposed the creation of an international mechanism for investigating crimes against peaceful protesters in the country, it was the turn of the Russian representative. "...Polyanskiy went on to say that claiming that a country's elections saw bias and fraud is not a rare occasion, giving the example of presidential elections in the U.S. Polyanskiy asked why potential election fraud in America is not a subject of discussion and referred to different treatment of elections in USA and Belarus as garish double standards. "'Is there a list of bad countries somewhere regarding which colleagues in the West silently support anti-government actions and protests and 'good' ones where the powers that be are always in the right? Why are you paying exaggerated attention to such phenomena only in certain countries, while ignoring them in France, UK, Germany and, as it happens, also Estonia?' Polyanskiy asked." https://news.err.ee/1608084259/russian-diplomat-turns-meeting-to-support-belarus-into-an-attack-on-estonia https://news.err.ee/1608084259/russian-diplomat-turns-meetin...
- rendall 6y ago
  I assume the downvotes are from people who think one of the tribes attacking the legitimacy of the Office of President was justified while that of the other was reckless.
wernercd 6y ago
Authoritarian? The proof is out there of the fraud in America... meanwhile, Trumps replacement? Quoted "A dictator uses EOs" and he's already used a record number of them while his white house is surrounded by troops and barbed wire. https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/l9ugvn/by_his_own_definition_biden_is_already_governing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/l9ugvn/by_his_own... https://www.t-g.com/blogs/stevemills/entry/76498 https://www.t-g.com/blogs/stevemills/entry/76498 https://news.yahoo.com/us-capitol-building-surrounded-barbed-201209478.html https://news.yahoo.com/us-capitol-building-surrounded-barbed... Trump was never an "authoritarian" - and if you think he was... you better be 100x more vocal about the new regime whos already doing worse to lead by fiat after cheating to get in in the first place.
- simonh 6y ago
  If there's proof, why is it that no court in America, even the conservative stacked supreme court, will give it the time of day? Trump's own legal team were so clear they had no credible evidence that their court cases never even alleged any fraud. Why not? I've still yet to hear a coherent reason why Trump is even alleging such massive fraud. I'll do without proof even, I understand something can be true or strongly suspected without proof, but you need a reason to suspect it right? Some initial concern or reason for thinking there might be fraud on the scale of millions of votes across numerous states in this particular election. Including states in which Republican appointed election officials supported and certified the results. Honest question, what is it? To my knowledge Trump has never given one. I'd love to know. For conservatives like myself outside America that view the Republican party as our natural political allies, it's desperately sad. Fortunately there are responsible Republicans standing up for the Democratic process, but so few. We're going to be dealing with the corrosive effect of this on democratic processes across the world for many years to come.
  - krapp 6y ago
    Trump was alleging fraud since the beginning, because it's a common belief among Republicans that the Democratic Party takes and maintains power primarily through fraud and criminal activity. Remember the narrative in 2016 was that the mainstream media and social media were all controlled by the globalist left taking orders from the Democratic Party, collaborating to "rig the election" for Hillary Clinton. Trump didn't mean that as a metaphor, he was literally accusing the Democrats of doing what he would accuse them of in 2020. Trumpists believe that it was only through the revolutionary power of their populist uprising that Trump was able to be elected at all... but it could happen again. Remember, people were literally accusing Hillary Clinton and the DNC of committing treason and claiming Trump was going to lock her up as soon he got into office (note the throughline between the DNC email leaks, Pizzagate and eventually QAnon is "Democratic Party/leftist/liberal corruption.") Populism like Trump's is always driven by a persecution complex, the belief that the populists have been humiliated, wronged or cheated from their rightful destiny by some nebulous enemy within (be it Jews, immigrants, socialists, Democrats, what have you) and the promise from a strong leader of just retribution against that enemy through revolutionary action (and often violence.) Of course, this is just a means of control. The Democrats didn't try to rig the election in 2016 and they didn't steal it in 2020 but people driven by irrational fear and hatred are easy to manipulate, because once you know your enemy is pure evil (literally they drink the blood of the children they rape for their satanic orgies and they're Marxists!) and that the system is always rigged against you and enemies within are everywhere, all decisions become simple. Trust God, trust the Leader, trust the Plan.
marliechiller 6y ago
election fraud was a thing before the US 2020 election. It seems presumptive to assume this is in some way related to US precedent
- spurgu 6y ago
  Well it certainly hasn't helped.
pjc50 6y ago
See previously: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Bolivian_political_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Bolivian_political_crisis : alleged electoral fraud (which I think was somewhat substantiated, but it's very unclear) -> questionable rightwing government -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Bolivian_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Bolivian_general_election Election fraud can be a real issue. The question is, like "weapons of mass destruction", getting the evidence rather than going on suspicion. (Prior to 2020, there were real concerns from security experts: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/04/securing_electi_1.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/04/securing_elec... ... but everyone assumed it would be rigged in favour of the Republicans)
himinlomax 6y ago
> Sound familiar? Are you talking about the alleged Russian interference in the 2016 US elections?

by altacc 6y ago

rendall 6y ago

Indeed. Trump's attack on the integrity of the 2020 election was irresponsible, as was the Democrats' on the 2016 election. I don't think Americans generally understand how fragile legitimacy is, and how important it is Russian diplomat turns meeting to support Belarus into an attack on Estonia "...After representatives had expressed concern for the situation in Belarus one after another and Estonian Minister of Foreign Affairs Urmas Reinsalu proposed the creation of an international mechanism for investigating crimes against peaceful protesters in the country, it was the turn of the Russian representative. "...Polyanskiy went on to say that claiming that a country's elections saw bias and fraud is not a rare occasion, giving the example of presidential elections in the U.S. Polyanskiy asked why potential election fraud in America is not a subject of discussion and referred to different treatment of elections in USA and Belarus as garish double standards. "'Is there a list of bad countries somewhere regarding which colleagues in the West silently support anti-government actions and protests and 'good' ones where the powers that be are always in the right? Why are you paying exaggerated attention to such phenomena only in certain countries, while ignoring them in France, UK, Germany and, as it happens, also Estonia?' Polyanskiy asked." https://news.err.ee/1608084259/russian-diplomat-turns-meeting-to-support-belarus-into-an-attack-on-estonia https://news.err.ee/1608084259/russian-diplomat-turns-meetin...

rendall 6y ago
I assume the downvotes are from people who think one of the tribes attacking the legitimacy of the Office of President was justified while that of the other was reckless.

wernercd 6y ago

Authoritarian? The proof is out there of the fraud in America... meanwhile, Trumps replacement? Quoted "A dictator uses EOs" and he's already used a record number of them while his white house is surrounded by troops and barbed wire. https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/l9ugvn/by_his_own_definition_biden_is_already_governing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/l9ugvn/by_his_own... https://www.t-g.com/blogs/stevemills/entry/76498 https://www.t-g.com/blogs/stevemills/entry/76498 https://news.yahoo.com/us-capitol-building-surrounded-barbed-201209478.html https://news.yahoo.com/us-capitol-building-surrounded-barbed... Trump was never an "authoritarian" - and if you think he was... you better be 100x more vocal about the new regime whos already doing worse to lead by fiat after cheating to get in in the first place.

simonh 6y ago
If there's proof, why is it that no court in America, even the conservative stacked supreme court, will give it the time of day? Trump's own legal team were so clear they had no credible evidence that their court cases never even alleged any fraud. Why not? I've still yet to hear a coherent reason why Trump is even alleging such massive fraud. I'll do without proof even, I understand something can be true or strongly suspected without proof, but you need a reason to suspect it right? Some initial concern or reason for thinking there might be fraud on the scale of millions of votes across numerous states in this particular election. Including states in which Republican appointed election officials supported and certified the results. Honest question, what is it? To my knowledge Trump has never given one. I'd love to know. For conservatives like myself outside America that view the Republican party as our natural political allies, it's desperately sad. Fortunately there are responsible Republicans standing up for the Democratic process, but so few. We're going to be dealing with the corrosive effect of this on democratic processes across the world for many years to come.
- krapp 6y ago
  Trump was alleging fraud since the beginning, because it's a common belief among Republicans that the Democratic Party takes and maintains power primarily through fraud and criminal activity. Remember the narrative in 2016 was that the mainstream media and social media were all controlled by the globalist left taking orders from the Democratic Party, collaborating to "rig the election" for Hillary Clinton. Trump didn't mean that as a metaphor, he was literally accusing the Democrats of doing what he would accuse them of in 2020. Trumpists believe that it was only through the revolutionary power of their populist uprising that Trump was able to be elected at all... but it could happen again. Remember, people were literally accusing Hillary Clinton and the DNC of committing treason and claiming Trump was going to lock her up as soon he got into office (note the throughline between the DNC email leaks, Pizzagate and eventually QAnon is "Democratic Party/leftist/liberal corruption.") Populism like Trump's is always driven by a persecution complex, the belief that the populists have been humiliated, wronged or cheated from their rightful destiny by some nebulous enemy within (be it Jews, immigrants, socialists, Democrats, what have you) and the promise from a strong leader of just retribution against that enemy through revolutionary action (and often violence.) Of course, this is just a means of control. The Democrats didn't try to rig the election in 2016 and they didn't steal it in 2020 but people driven by irrational fear and hatred are easy to manipulate, because once you know your enemy is pure evil (literally they drink the blood of the children they rape for their satanic orgies and they're Marxists!) and that the system is always rigged against you and enemies within are everywhere, all decisions become simple. Trust God, trust the Leader, trust the Plan.

marliechiller 6y ago

election fraud was a thing before the US 2020 election. It seems presumptive to assume this is in some way related to US precedent

spurgu 6y ago
Well it certainly hasn't helped.

pjc50 6y ago

See previously: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Bolivian_political_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Bolivian_political_crisis : alleged electoral fraud (which I think was somewhat substantiated, but it's very unclear) -> questionable rightwing government -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Bolivian_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Bolivian_general_election Election fraud can be a real issue. The question is, like "weapons of mass destruction", getting the evidence rather than going on suspicion. (Prior to 2020, there were real concerns from security experts: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/04/securing_electi_1.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/04/securing_elec... ... but everyone assumed it would be rigged in favour of the Republicans)

himinlomax 6y ago

> Sound familiar? Are you talking about the alleged Russian interference in the 2016 US elections?