4 ms·
Again, what does "cancel culture" mean? Can you define it in a way which isn't politically biased against left-leaning viewpoints from the get-go? Obama's caut
by eesmith 6y ago
Again, what does "cancel culture" mean? Can you define it in a way which isn't politically biased against left-leaning viewpoints from the get-go?
Obama's caution about a "‘circular firing squad’, where you start shooting at your allies because one of them has strayed from purity on the issues" seems little different than "Life of Brian's" caution about doctrinaire differences in opposing the Romans - certainly not some caution about a new sort of cancel culture! And how much might come from Obama wanting to deflect criticism about his support for using US military power - just how many drone strikes did he order? - or handling of the Central American refugee crisis at the southern border?
Do you think Chomsky is correct about everything? I don't agree with him about the creator of 'email' either. I certainly disagree with many of his co-signers.
Changing "blacklist" or "master" is not worthwhile to debate. The effort is simple, the benefits small (but non-zero), so do it ... and realize that it's a weak-sauce paper-thin covering over much harder and more intractable problems. It's a "recycle your paper cups while companies kill rivers" sort of issue.
Concerning 'Philosophy professors', if someone makes a philosophical argument that there are only males and females, and nothing else - clearly contrary to scientific evidence and cultural experience - then why don't they deserve censure the same way they would for making the philosophical argument that the Earth is flat? Is philosophy really about making shit up and never facing consequences?
I was completely confused by the Twitter link you posted. What's the "cancelling" there?
"for not giving students time off" is a mischaracterization of your #4. It was for using what was described as 'backhandedly racist ... sarcastic rhetoric' in responding to that request.
What does it mean for Stallman to be "cancelled"? He has multiple platforms, including https://stallman.org/ https://stallman.org/ where you see he's giving a (remote) talk this Thursday. You can't really mean that any sort of loss of position as a result of negative criticism == "cancelled", do you?
If you do then surely the effects on Yiannopoulos and Cheney are also parts of cancel culture, right? But they aren't called that, because "cancelled" is only really used when there was left-leaning pressure.
If someone is fired for talking about unionizing, that's illegal of course. But why isn't that also part of cancel culture? If a grad student faces pressure from the advisor to not talk about ongoing sexual harassment in the department, is that part of cancel culture? If an employee is socially snubbed for being an atheist, is that part of cancel culture? Wasn't the entire Red Scare an expression of "cancel culture" against people expressing Communist or socialist views?
Going back to Stallman, should someone's fame and life's work be used to justify ignoring valid negative criticisms from others, in situations where those less famous would certainly have lost their position? That seems to be part of the argument for why Stallman should have kept his position at MIT, but yet that sounds very much like support for cancel culture, by cancelling the voice of those making the complaints.
The "infamous donglegate" was heavy-handed incompetence on the conference organizers' part, combined with a full CYA followup. See https://zedshaw.com/blog/2020-10-07-authoritarianism-of-code https://zedshaw.com/blog/2020-10-07-authoritarianism-of-code for a much harsher view of the PSF. My own experience, when pointing out how certain issue was not handled in a "open, considerate, and respectful", was to be told that my framing this as a CoC issue was triggering one of the PSF members - yes, a famous PSF member was using the language of the oppressed to prevent discussion of how he wasn't being respectful of others.
My reading of the CoC effort at the PSF is that the PSF doesn't accept that they themselves might be the oppressors, which is why the CoC doesn't have anti-retaliation clauses which limit the PSF's power in ways that experience from other areas (like the EEOC) have shown are essential.
This is nothing new. As the Phil Ochs quote implies, people might abstractly say they are progressive, but that doesn't mean they are. As another, recent, example, white progressives say the want to send their children to integrated schools, but "when families are given control over which schools to send their children to, they make choices that perpetuate school segregation." - https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/01/white-parents-segregation-now-segregation-tomorrow-segregation-forever https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/01/white-parents-s... .
Indeed, my views here are also certainly nothing new. Quoting from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture#Criticism :
> While I agree that the line between debate and suppression is one that occasionally gets crossed by the so-called left wing, it is almost invariably true that the real cancel culture is perpetrated by those who have embraced the term. If you look through Australian history, as well as European and American history, you will find countless examples of people speaking out against injustice and being persecuted in return.
Rather than give me a cherry-picked list of things you consider to be cancel culture, why don't you give me a definition? Because my readings so far suggest it's much more a "I know it when I see it" sort of thing.
- bendbro 6y agoDefined: someone performs an action, and because some group finds that action morally wrong, that person is removed from some position of power or responsibility despite the action they took having no predictive power in deciding whether they are fit to perform in their position of power or responsibility. Since miscellaneous speech is nearly always not related to someone's ability to perform, many cancellation examples revolve speech. I'm going to summarize a few of your points and respond to them: 1. What's with the anti-left bias? Why aren't you calling out right wing examples? Right wing cancellations are not a current problem. I remember in the early 00s when it was, but that time has long gone. If it becomes a problem, I'll gladly complain about it. McCarthyism was wrong, but it doesn't exist anymore. I'd love for you to prove me wrong with examples. 2. Why all the cherry-picked examples? Cherry picked from what? There's no dataset of cancellations and not-cancellations to pick from. You aren't applying this fallacy properly. The purpose of this list is to show that even among some of the most prominent left wing leaders, cancel culture is a problem. 3. Regarding Obama: per the definition I gave, I think it would fit cancel culture. It is distinctly a left wing issue, and allies, people who are the most practically capable of working with the left are removed on unnecessary purity tests. 3. On Chomsky: I don't agree with him on everything, but I do on this. Why is that relevant? 4. On philosophy professors "facing consequences" for "being wrong." So it follows that under your design for philosophy, the only way to remain a philosopher is to never make a morally wrong argument. I don't think that design makes sense. 5. On the twitter link: Numerous academics and journalists are accusing a journal and the authors of racism for publishing a study that correlates covid effects to race. Pants on head stupidity. So much for the party of science. 6. On me "mischaracterizing #4": Yes, that is what the students claim, but nothing in the professor's email indicates the professor is incapable of teaching a class and fairly issuing grades. 7. Regarding Stallman: he stepped down as the president of the FSF. How his political musings predict his ability to run free software, only the idiots who cancelled him can say. 9. On Yiannopoulos and Cheney I'm not aware of what happened there. Are they responsible for cancelling someone? 10. On donglegate So would this not fit the definition of cancellation? 11. On your various examples of left wing actions resulting in negative consequences to the actors (grad students, harassment, red scare, etc) I think it is wrong to punish the actors in those cases. If moral outrage from a group of people pushes their punishment, then it should be considered cancellation. 12. On ignoring Stallman's accusers being cancellation: I don't think it fits the definition, and I don't think the accuser suffers any negative effects for being ignored. Ignoring accusations of wrongdoing because the purported wrongdoing has no impact is in the same boat as ignoring accusations of wrongdoing because there is no evidence of the wrongdoing. Both are checks that render the accusation irrelevant. 13. On American history being full of examples of right wingers cancelling people. I agree. So why don't we learn from the history and agree on a simple ideal that prevents it from happening to anyone? 14. On banning blacklist and master being an easy change. I feel this is a tangential topic, but would like to discuss it anyway. From a purely programatic perspective, it isn't an easy change. At my company the codebase has, lets say a million instances of master within it, spread across numerous packages. Lets generously assume it takes 5 minutes to build and test a replacement (but we both know that's impossibly short). Given that generous assumption, it would take about 1 developer year of effort to complete the replacement. Adding existential upset to that pain, it's also an unmotivated action. Have black programmers actually ever been surveyed to see whether they want the term removed? And further, the spearhead isn't from the ranks of developers; it comes politically from management. The actual workers get to enjoy being beaten with yet another politically conjured cludgel. So if it's a "weak-sauce paper-thin" action, with no evidence of need, has a massive cost, and fucks workers, why are we doing it? And if as you say it's beyond the pale of debate, should I be cancelled for making the argument I just did?