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Are there any crypto projects that allow chargebacks? I religiously avoid using my debit card except at bank ATMs to avoid that once every few years when someo

Are there any crypto projects that allow chargebacks? I religiously avoid using my debit card except at bank ATMs to avoid that once every few years when someone skims my credit card. That and rewards are the main value-add of a traditional payment flow at the moment.

MattGaiser 6y ago
This to me is the barrier that prevents the adoption of crypto everywhere. There are substantial advantages to centralized control.
- icelancer 6y ago
  You can centralize on top of BTC if you want that. Nothing is stopping you from offering a chargeback solution on the blockchain network (though this is much more likely to exist on top of Ethereum's network). There are no chargebacks for cash, for example, yet it underpins the Visa/MC network.
deleted 6y ago
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londons_explore 6y ago
Bitcoin allows transactions in the future. Thats effectively the same as a chargeback, since the sender of the money can decide at any point up to the time of the actual transfer to send the money elsewhere. You could theoretically design a hardware wallet (like a credit card) to only sign transactions three days into the future. That would give you three days to 'charge back' anything you don't like. Not sure merchants would be happy to accept that though...
- sneak 6y ago
  That's not really the same thing. A chargeback is mediated by a trusted third party, and the merchant knows that if they are reputable and do what they're supposed to, they'll get (usually) paid. Future (possibly reversible) payments don't really give the merchant the same risk cap that a credit card authorization does.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    That can be done with bitcoin too. Just send the third party the money to forward on or send back after 3 days. You can build more complex schemes where the third party can't just keep the money for themselves too.
    - sneak 6y ago
      Lots of things can be done. The fact that this is or is not technically possible with the protocol doesn't explain why precisely nobody is actually using it in this way.
Geee 6y ago
It's possible to provide customer protection as a third-party service. Chargebacks shouldn't exist on the base layer of money.
- alextheparrot 6y ago
  That's what I was asking about, though. If there are any crypto projects that provide this given that the traditional payment flow [0]. Chargebacks seem to be conflated with escrow a lot while also simply pinning chargebacks to an oracle problem. If it really is that trivial, there should be a team that someone is aware of offering this? From what I can find around current crypto "credit cards", it seems they are in reality just debit cards. [0] Not money, but Visa - though this was ambiguous as written
- hakfoo 6y ago
  Why? The goal of a currency system is to provide a tool that makes buying and selling easy, trustworthy, and efficient. Being able to get money back after a failed transaction punishes bad actors and improves the trust factor for buyers. The ability to build it into the base layer of the currency is an interesting breakthrough. We say "cash or gold is not reversible", but it's less because it's a desirable feature, and more that there's no way to implement it. The thing I'd be interested in would be if the right model is "reactive" reversal of disputed transactions, or some sort of "proactive" escrow model-- paying people with money that doesn't activate until the customer has confirmed they got the promised goods/services, or at least until a window for refund has passed.

MattGaiser 6y ago

This to me is the barrier that prevents the adoption of crypto everywhere. There are substantial advantages to centralized control.

icelancer 6y ago
You can centralize on top of BTC if you want that. Nothing is stopping you from offering a chargeback solution on the blockchain network (though this is much more likely to exist on top of Ethereum's network). There are no chargebacks for cash, for example, yet it underpins the Visa/MC network.

deleted 6y ago

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londons_explore 6y ago

Bitcoin allows transactions in the future. Thats effectively the same as a chargeback, since the sender of the money can decide at any point up to the time of the actual transfer to send the money elsewhere. You could theoretically design a hardware wallet (like a credit card) to only sign transactions three days into the future. That would give you three days to 'charge back' anything you don't like. Not sure merchants would be happy to accept that though...

sneak 6y ago
That's not really the same thing. A chargeback is mediated by a trusted third party, and the merchant knows that if they are reputable and do what they're supposed to, they'll get (usually) paid. Future (possibly reversible) payments don't really give the merchant the same risk cap that a credit card authorization does.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  That can be done with bitcoin too. Just send the third party the money to forward on or send back after 3 days. You can build more complex schemes where the third party can't just keep the money for themselves too.
  - sneak 6y ago
    Lots of things can be done. The fact that this is or is not technically possible with the protocol doesn't explain why precisely nobody is actually using it in this way.

Geee 6y ago

It's possible to provide customer protection as a third-party service. Chargebacks shouldn't exist on the base layer of money.

alextheparrot 6y ago
That's what I was asking about, though. If there are any crypto projects that provide this given that the traditional payment flow [0]. Chargebacks seem to be conflated with escrow a lot while also simply pinning chargebacks to an oracle problem. If it really is that trivial, there should be a team that someone is aware of offering this? From what I can find around current crypto "credit cards", it seems they are in reality just debit cards. [0] Not money, but Visa - though this was ambiguous as written
hakfoo 6y ago
Why? The goal of a currency system is to provide a tool that makes buying and selling easy, trustworthy, and efficient. Being able to get money back after a failed transaction punishes bad actors and improves the trust factor for buyers. The ability to build it into the base layer of the currency is an interesting breakthrough. We say "cash or gold is not reversible", but it's less because it's a desirable feature, and more that there's no way to implement it. The thing I'd be interested in would be if the right model is "reactive" reversal of disputed transactions, or some sort of "proactive" escrow model-- paying people with money that doesn't activate until the customer has confirmed they got the promised goods/services, or at least until a window for refund has passed.