6 ms·

Super excited to see WebHID landing! I have code to control lights via a browser application and finally will be able to release this! Also NFC support is hug

by taf2 6y ago

Super excited to see WebHID landing! I have code to control lights via a browser application and finally will be able to release this! Also NFC support is huge - I can imagine all kinds of neat activation features for a website. Imagine sending a flyer in the mail with an NFC chip built in and then having a webpage verify based on this... Lot of really neat IOT apps that can be created with this feature... BLE is amazing and I really wish we had the query permissions API... since that would allow for heart monitors and other permeant native app like experiences...

ksec 6y ago
NFC is going to be Great and could replace a lot of ugly QR Code usage. But NFC is currently locked on all iOS devices.
- Deathmax 6y ago
  Core NFC has been available since iOS 11 (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corenfc https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corenfc). You don't have full access to implement for example contactless EMV payments, but you can read and write data to NFC tags.
  - ksec 6y ago
    OH wow. I stand Corrected. Thank You. I wish Safari implement something like WebNFC soon. I just dont like QR Code.
    - dmitriid 6y ago
      Neither Safari nor Mozilla will implement this due to security concerns that Chrome ignores. None of the new APIs (except web sharing) advertised in the original post will be implemented, as a matter of fact. For the same reasons. Their positions are open and are helpfully tracked by Chrome. See a rundown here [1]. I wish more people paid more attention to Google's shenanigans. [1] https://twitter.com/dmitriid/status/1356125702513418249 https://twitter.com/dmitriid/status/1356125702513418249
      - ksec 6y ago
        >paid more attention to Google's shenanigans Agree. Thanks for pointing it out. I dont follow Chrome / Web App development closely ( I only like to work on Web pages ). But I am well aware of Google's shenanigans, dating back when they first state their "Do No Evil" BS. Typing that makes me feel old. That was nearly 20 years ago.
- baybal2 6y ago
  Except NFC readers are missing in a good portion of Android phones sold to countries where most of people live. Just through that alone, QR codes will be a default choice over NFC. NFC feel to be on the way becoming a US version of FeliCa.
m00dy 6y ago
I think it is mostly for cloud gaming
- taf2 6y ago
  I think it's also for call centers... which employee a lot of people... think head phones, even specialized hardware buttons to answer phone calls, place calls on hold etc... and being able to distribute the software part all via the web... WebRTC and WebHID - will be very happy together...
gregsadetsky 6y ago
Is there some information on the "bandwidth"/latency of WebHID devices? Specifically, could it work with a low resolution-ish video feed? I'm specifically thinking of a very niche type of device, specifically an inexpensive VGA/analog video capture usb "stick" called "EasyCap". This particular name has been re-used by many manufacturers who all sell EasyCaps with different chips in them, which makes finding a working driver a complete nightmare across almost all operating systems. After much research, it turns out that Linux had native support for the chip in my EasyCap, and I was able to capture video using ffmpeg (under VirtualBox running on macOS). Happy to share notes! (reply here or email me) Insane list of different drivers for EasyCaps under Windows: https://visser.io/2015/06/easycap-drivers-for-windows-8-1/ https://visser.io/2015/06/easycap-drivers-for-windows-8-1/ ("Below is a link to the Windows 7 drivers that were compatible with my EasyCAP device and further down a list of other EasyCAP drivers you can try.") Info on existing versions/chips & Linux support: https://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Easycap https://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Easycap ("It seems that EasyCAP is not a company or brand name, but some chinese manufacturers use this label for at least four completely hardware different clones of equally looking audio and video capture devices. EasyCAP devices and clones are vastly sold in onlineshops at low prices.")
- voltagex_ 6y ago
  HID is not built for that kind of use.
  - gregsadetsky 6y ago
    Thanks! HID in general? WebHID? Is it a bandwidth/data limitation? Something enforced by Chrome?
    - tobinfricke 6y ago
      HID stands for Human Interface Device and usually means things like keyboards, mice, trackpads, etc https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_human_interface_device_class https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_human_interface_device_c...
    - 6y ago
Aaargh20318 6y ago
Reading the justification for WebHID I get the feeling I’m missing something: > There is a long tail of human interface devices (HIDs) that are too new, too old, or too uncommon to be accessible by systems' device drivers. The WebHID API solves this by providing a way to implement device-specific logic in JavaScript. > (...) > The inability to access uncommon or unusual HID devices is particularly painful, for example, when it comes to gamepad support. Gamepad inputs and outputs are not well standardized and web browsers often require custom logic for specific devices. This is unsustainable and results in poor support for the long tail of older and uncommon devices. So instead of only having to implement support for these devices once (in the browser), they now expect every website that would need support for these kind of devices to write their own code to handle all these ‘long tail’ input devices ? How does that not make the problem infinitely worse ? Instead of convincing one party to implement and support the code to handle your obscure HID, now you beee to convince potentially millions of websites. All running different implementations with their own unique bugs and issues. This sounds less like an effort from the Chrome team to add support for these devices and more like a way to make it someone else’s problem.
- foota 6y ago
  It's not like every device will or could be supported reasonably by a browser. This allows support to be done by those who care about it.
  - Forge36 6y ago
    Distributing print drivers via the internet? Allowing the ultimate hardware hacking via the largest PC sandbox environment? Should have interesting security implementations for hardware fingerprinting.
- Drakim 6y ago
  More power to the developers. In the past you had to cross your fingers that the browser vendor would have implemented the gamepad the user wanted to use, and it not, you'd be out of luck. The issue of "every site needing to reimplement every gamepad" can be fixed by developers making libraries with those implementations.
0xDEEPFAC 6y ago
I don't think I like this trend of web browers having so much power over hardware - seems like a huge vulnerability. Also, how much memory do these changes involve? With these chromium updates every single elektron app I use will be affected?
- freebuju 6y ago
  This increase in browsers leveraging hardware capabilities is not necessarily a bad thing. Think of it as the cost of advancement. Chances are that most devices nowadays come with sufficient memory to handle these. And for cases where this would harm overall experience, there are always toggles. Though not to underestimate the vulnerabilities some of these advancements bring. Some tech such as Bluetooth have been exposed to security bugs in the not so recent past. Am also partly concerned about how complex & almost OS-like browsers have become today. Read ChromeOS etc. They also expose too much information at the hardware level to webpages. Though as complex as the big browsers get. We'll always have simple browsers such as Webkit-based Epiphany that still stay true to the traditional Web browser in essence.
- zabhi 6y ago
  This is just the next step in the evolution of browsers into full fledged operating systems. The Web APIs would become the next POSIX. And we might end up with uni-kernels that would just be running browsers on bare-metal. Want to be stalked, here is your Chrome OS. Want privacy, here is your Firefox OS. (Where did I last hear of these? Hmm...) Who knows, when all this is over someone might make a browser for this new browser OS. Gary Bernhardt saw this coming long back. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...
postalrat 6y ago
Couldn't you have used web midi to control lights? I thought it was somewhat common application for midi.
dmitriid 6y ago
Let me curb your enthusiasm: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986079

by taf2 6y ago

ksec 6y ago

NFC is going to be Great and could replace a lot of ugly QR Code usage. But NFC is currently locked on all iOS devices.

Deathmax 6y ago
Core NFC has been available since iOS 11 (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corenfc https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corenfc). You don't have full access to implement for example contactless EMV payments, but you can read and write data to NFC tags.
- ksec 6y ago
  OH wow. I stand Corrected. Thank You. I wish Safari implement something like WebNFC soon. I just dont like QR Code.
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    Neither Safari nor Mozilla will implement this due to security concerns that Chrome ignores. None of the new APIs (except web sharing) advertised in the original post will be implemented, as a matter of fact. For the same reasons. Their positions are open and are helpfully tracked by Chrome. See a rundown here [1]. I wish more people paid more attention to Google's shenanigans. [1] https://twitter.com/dmitriid/status/1356125702513418249 https://twitter.com/dmitriid/status/1356125702513418249
    - ksec 6y ago
      >paid more attention to Google's shenanigans Agree. Thanks for pointing it out. I dont follow Chrome / Web App development closely ( I only like to work on Web pages ). But I am well aware of Google's shenanigans, dating back when they first state their "Do No Evil" BS. Typing that makes me feel old. That was nearly 20 years ago.
baybal2 6y ago
Except NFC readers are missing in a good portion of Android phones sold to countries where most of people live. Just through that alone, QR codes will be a default choice over NFC. NFC feel to be on the way becoming a US version of FeliCa.

m00dy 6y ago

I think it is mostly for cloud gaming

taf2 6y ago
I think it's also for call centers... which employee a lot of people... think head phones, even specialized hardware buttons to answer phone calls, place calls on hold etc... and being able to distribute the software part all via the web... WebRTC and WebHID - will be very happy together...

gregsadetsky 6y ago

Is there some information on the "bandwidth"/latency of WebHID devices? Specifically, could it work with a low resolution-ish video feed? I'm specifically thinking of a very niche type of device, specifically an inexpensive VGA/analog video capture usb "stick" called "EasyCap". This particular name has been re-used by many manufacturers who all sell EasyCaps with different chips in them, which makes finding a working driver a complete nightmare across almost all operating systems. After much research, it turns out that Linux had native support for the chip in my EasyCap, and I was able to capture video using ffmpeg (under VirtualBox running on macOS). Happy to share notes! (reply here or email me) Insane list of different drivers for EasyCaps under Windows: https://visser.io/2015/06/easycap-drivers-for-windows-8-1/ https://visser.io/2015/06/easycap-drivers-for-windows-8-1/ ("Below is a link to the Windows 7 drivers that were compatible with my EasyCAP device and further down a list of other EasyCAP drivers you can try.") Info on existing versions/chips & Linux support: https://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Easycap https://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Easycap ("It seems that EasyCAP is not a company or brand name, but some chinese manufacturers use this label for at least four completely hardware different clones of equally looking audio and video capture devices. EasyCAP devices and clones are vastly sold in onlineshops at low prices.")

voltagex_ 6y ago
HID is not built for that kind of use.
- gregsadetsky 6y ago
  Thanks! HID in general? WebHID? Is it a bandwidth/data limitation? Something enforced by Chrome?
  - tobinfricke 6y ago
    HID stands for Human Interface Device and usually means things like keyboards, mice, trackpads, etc https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_human_interface_device_class https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_human_interface_device_c...
  - 6y ago

Aaargh20318 6y ago

Reading the justification for WebHID I get the feeling I’m missing something: > There is a long tail of human interface devices (HIDs) that are too new, too old, or too uncommon to be accessible by systems' device drivers. The WebHID API solves this by providing a way to implement device-specific logic in JavaScript. > (...) > The inability to access uncommon or unusual HID devices is particularly painful, for example, when it comes to gamepad support. Gamepad inputs and outputs are not well standardized and web browsers often require custom logic for specific devices. This is unsustainable and results in poor support for the long tail of older and uncommon devices. So instead of only having to implement support for these devices once (in the browser), they now expect every website that would need support for these kind of devices to write their own code to handle all these ‘long tail’ input devices ? How does that not make the problem infinitely worse ? Instead of convincing one party to implement and support the code to handle your obscure HID, now you beee to convince potentially millions of websites. All running different implementations with their own unique bugs and issues. This sounds less like an effort from the Chrome team to add support for these devices and more like a way to make it someone else’s problem.

foota 6y ago
It's not like every device will or could be supported reasonably by a browser. This allows support to be done by those who care about it.
- Forge36 6y ago
  Distributing print drivers via the internet? Allowing the ultimate hardware hacking via the largest PC sandbox environment? Should have interesting security implementations for hardware fingerprinting.
Drakim 6y ago
More power to the developers. In the past you had to cross your fingers that the browser vendor would have implemented the gamepad the user wanted to use, and it not, you'd be out of luck. The issue of "every site needing to reimplement every gamepad" can be fixed by developers making libraries with those implementations.

0xDEEPFAC 6y ago

I don't think I like this trend of web browers having so much power over hardware - seems like a huge vulnerability. Also, how much memory do these changes involve? With these chromium updates every single elektron app I use will be affected?

freebuju 6y ago
This increase in browsers leveraging hardware capabilities is not necessarily a bad thing. Think of it as the cost of advancement. Chances are that most devices nowadays come with sufficient memory to handle these. And for cases where this would harm overall experience, there are always toggles. Though not to underestimate the vulnerabilities some of these advancements bring. Some tech such as Bluetooth have been exposed to security bugs in the not so recent past. Am also partly concerned about how complex & almost OS-like browsers have become today. Read ChromeOS etc. They also expose too much information at the hardware level to webpages. Though as complex as the big browsers get. We'll always have simple browsers such as Webkit-based Epiphany that still stay true to the traditional Web browser in essence.
zabhi 6y ago
This is just the next step in the evolution of browsers into full fledged operating systems. The Web APIs would become the next POSIX. And we might end up with uni-kernels that would just be running browsers on bare-metal. Want to be stalked, here is your Chrome OS. Want privacy, here is your Firefox OS. (Where did I last hear of these? Hmm...) Who knows, when all this is over someone might make a browser for this new browser OS. Gary Bernhardt saw this coming long back. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

postalrat 6y ago

Couldn't you have used web midi to control lights? I thought it was somewhat common application for midi.

dmitriid 6y ago

Let me curb your enthusiasm: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986079