3 ms·

You might be one of those experienced developers who has gone through their entire career without ever meeting a well designed, beautifully architectured applic

by brabel 6y ago

You might be one of those experienced developers who has gone through their entire career without ever meeting a well designed, beautifully architectured application, and therefore concluded, sensibly, that all real-world applications look like shit if you look inside, and you seem to have come to believe that this is the only possible way. I have a different experience. Code that is well designed makes mistakes look obvious and the logic feel natural. It's very hard to write code like that, but I've seen it and I've been able to write it myself, so when I see a bunch of complicated code that only tests can tell whether or not it works, I know that the problem is really that the best design simply has not been found yet. If I find code that looks like shit and I realize there's a better design for it that will make the code clear and natural, I won't think twice to refactor it ruthlessly if such code has been a source of problems and time wasted (and fixing difficult to read code is huge costly to morale as well, which when taken into consideration, increases the cost of technical debt by a lot).

koonsolo 6y ago
> a well designed, beautifully architectured application I've seen everything during my career, bad code with lots of bugs, bad code running stable. Nice code full of bugs, and nice stable code. The reason something was stable was never how the code looked, but how battle tested the product was. You will learn, don't worry. Plus, at a certain point, it's about tradoffs and compromises. I would love to see highly optimized code that is easy to read. > only tests can tell whether or not it works Tests are nice, but the real test will be when users start breaking your app. I'm curious, what kind of product are you writing?
- mpfundstein 6y ago
  you assume a little bit to much about your discussion partners. calling them inexperienced etc... this takes away the whole strength of your argument plus lets you sound like a douche. plz fix
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    The original argument is what I consider one of the biggest beginner mistakes. So the inexperience argument is very much relevant. I was young and inexperienced once, and I had the same belief. But after bumping my head against the wall, I learned. In the mean time, I saw plenty of people bumping their head against the same wall. They all learned. So therefore I assume this person is indeed inexperienced. If I'm talking to some senior developer, then it's up to me to reassess my way of thinking, and looking where I'm missing something. But if not, then it's just the phase we all went through.
  - Person5478 6y ago
    I agree with him. It's indicative of more idealism than practical sense, which is indicative of inexperience.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- gugagore 6y ago
  > I would love to see highly optimized code that is easy to read. That that's a trade-off is [just] a deficiency in our programming languages and tooling around them. As we evolve are young field (and if you've had a long career, then it is even younger to you!) I trust we will find more and more highly-optimized code that is easy to read.
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    Computer languages are a means of communication between a human and a computer. They clearly evolved closer to human readability and understanding, and away from computer language itself. When you optimize, your code needs to be closer to computer language again, and therefore further away from human readability. The only way to have both, is to have a system that can optimize the code automatically. We are getting closer to that, but still sometimes this is not enough.
- brabel 6y ago
  I've written code in all sorts of scenarios: government, web application back and front ends, auth, simulations, testing software, statical analysis, long-maintained products, throwaway but complex scripts for one-use-only, and multiple popular libraries I maintain. Difficult-to-read code always causes problems, either because it directly causes bugs due to its logic being obfuscated, or because no one can approach it to make necessary modifications when change is invevitably required. You claim that "The reason something was stable was never how the code looked, but how battle tested the product was". I am claiming that you're wrong and your counter-argument is that I will learn to be like you one day. This shows that you're the one who has to grow up. I am constantly looking for ways to write code that works in all scenarios, provably. I don't need to battle test code if I can do that. I only need battle tested code in the absence of that property. I will concede that in many occasions, this is all you can get, but that's due to a lack of time and skills, not an inherent property of a system or the process of writing software. It's sad to see people who gave up on creating good software (because if you only can create reliable software after it's battle tested, that means it was buggy all along before that - so for the majority of the life of your product, your software was buggy - that is not acceptable). If you believe I am a dreamer, an unexperienced developer, let me prove you wrong. Show me some code you believe it's impossible to make reliable without "battle-testing" it over a decade, and I will show you how.
Person5478 6y ago
As a 20+ year vet, what worries me is when someone starts talking in terms of good or bad. It's a spectrum, not a binary. There is code that's just egregiously bad. There's code that's just egregiously good (and it's not clear which is more expensive to produce and maintain). But the vast majority falls into the grey area in between those extremes. The other poster (koonsolo) has just seen enough different codebases to have come to the conclusion that it's not nearly the most important aspect of a projects success. And I agree with them on that point (wholeheartedly in fact). Developers concentrate on it because it's what they're in all day, the same way that a DBA is going to concentrate on the data model because that's where they're at all day. But in the grand scheme of things, developers way overblow the value of great code. I also have reservations about the claim that most developers even know what great code _LOOKS_ like, I've seen too many terrible codebases that were claimed to be well designed by their creators. My point is that if the code isn't actively causing you problems then leave it be, and stop calling it good or bad. Call it what it is, working code that doesn't need to be bikeshedded over.

by brabel 6y ago

koonsolo 6y ago

> a well designed, beautifully architectured application I've seen everything during my career, bad code with lots of bugs, bad code running stable. Nice code full of bugs, and nice stable code. The reason something was stable was never how the code looked, but how battle tested the product was. You will learn, don't worry. Plus, at a certain point, it's about tradoffs and compromises. I would love to see highly optimized code that is easy to read. > only tests can tell whether or not it works Tests are nice, but the real test will be when users start breaking your app. I'm curious, what kind of product are you writing?

mpfundstein 6y ago
you assume a little bit to much about your discussion partners. calling them inexperienced etc... this takes away the whole strength of your argument plus lets you sound like a douche. plz fix
- koonsolo 6y ago
  The original argument is what I consider one of the biggest beginner mistakes. So the inexperience argument is very much relevant. I was young and inexperienced once, and I had the same belief. But after bumping my head against the wall, I learned. In the mean time, I saw plenty of people bumping their head against the same wall. They all learned. So therefore I assume this person is indeed inexperienced. If I'm talking to some senior developer, then it's up to me to reassess my way of thinking, and looking where I'm missing something. But if not, then it's just the phase we all went through.
- Person5478 6y ago
  I agree with him. It's indicative of more idealism than practical sense, which is indicative of inexperience.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
gugagore 6y ago
> I would love to see highly optimized code that is easy to read. That that's a trade-off is [just] a deficiency in our programming languages and tooling around them. As we evolve are young field (and if you've had a long career, then it is even younger to you!) I trust we will find more and more highly-optimized code that is easy to read.
- koonsolo 6y ago
  Computer languages are a means of communication between a human and a computer. They clearly evolved closer to human readability and understanding, and away from computer language itself. When you optimize, your code needs to be closer to computer language again, and therefore further away from human readability. The only way to have both, is to have a system that can optimize the code automatically. We are getting closer to that, but still sometimes this is not enough.
brabel 6y ago
I've written code in all sorts of scenarios: government, web application back and front ends, auth, simulations, testing software, statical analysis, long-maintained products, throwaway but complex scripts for one-use-only, and multiple popular libraries I maintain. Difficult-to-read code always causes problems, either because it directly causes bugs due to its logic being obfuscated, or because no one can approach it to make necessary modifications when change is invevitably required. You claim that "The reason something was stable was never how the code looked, but how battle tested the product was". I am claiming that you're wrong and your counter-argument is that I will learn to be like you one day. This shows that you're the one who has to grow up. I am constantly looking for ways to write code that works in all scenarios, provably. I don't need to battle test code if I can do that. I only need battle tested code in the absence of that property. I will concede that in many occasions, this is all you can get, but that's due to a lack of time and skills, not an inherent property of a system or the process of writing software. It's sad to see people who gave up on creating good software (because if you only can create reliable software after it's battle tested, that means it was buggy all along before that - so for the majority of the life of your product, your software was buggy - that is not acceptable). If you believe I am a dreamer, an unexperienced developer, let me prove you wrong. Show me some code you believe it's impossible to make reliable without "battle-testing" it over a decade, and I will show you how.

Person5478 6y ago

As a 20+ year vet, what worries me is when someone starts talking in terms of good or bad. It's a spectrum, not a binary. There is code that's just egregiously bad. There's code that's just egregiously good (and it's not clear which is more expensive to produce and maintain). But the vast majority falls into the grey area in between those extremes. The other poster (koonsolo) has just seen enough different codebases to have come to the conclusion that it's not nearly the most important aspect of a projects success. And I agree with them on that point (wholeheartedly in fact). Developers concentrate on it because it's what they're in all day, the same way that a DBA is going to concentrate on the data model because that's where they're at all day. But in the grand scheme of things, developers way overblow the value of great code. I also have reservations about the claim that most developers even know what great code _LOOKS_ like, I've seen too many terrible codebases that were claimed to be well designed by their creators. My point is that if the code isn't actively causing you problems then leave it be, and stop calling it good or bad. Call it what it is, working code that doesn't need to be bikeshedded over.