3 ms·

Well if missing an order by 70 million doses with a 2 months notice is a minor fault, what would be a major fault? Again, one thing is missing by less then hal

Well if missing an order by 70 million doses with a 2 months notice is a minor fault, what would be a major fault? Again, one thing is missing by less then half, other thing is more then half while fulfilling almost fully orders for other countries. So, clearly some contracts have more value then others, or there are blocks in place. Trump was pretty explicit and transparent about it: issued an executive order mandating all USA orders to have priority for USA. This is something tangible that can be worked with. What about UK? Why don't they come forward and say they also have a block for vaccine exports? Or it's only the EU that's "hostile" for doing it now? >I don't think there is any conspiracy. This isn't a conspiracy at all. It's binary: AZ can't, or won't, move stock from UK.

NoPie 6y ago
The major fault would be ineffective vaccine or the one with bad side-effects. Or not being able to manufacture at all. They did very well, all things considered. Normally setting up such manufacturing takes years. They didn't screw up. Just having some teething problems that will soon be solved.
- libertine 6y ago
  I'm sorry but I don't think you understand how serious this is: let me reframe this. AZ told the EU, 2 days ago, that the order to be delivered by March is missing 70 MILLION OUT OF 100 MILLION doses. This order takes MONTHS to prepare - just to put it in perspective. Imagine a production capacity of 2.000.000 doses per week, it would take AZ 50 WEEKS TO FULFILL THIS ORDER. And 8 weeks before delivery is when they realize that they will miss the delivery by 70.000.000 doses? Are you kidding me? 70.000.000 is enough to give immunize plenty of European countries alone, and they remember to notify the EU few weeks before their delivery.
  - NoPie 6y ago
    What exactly is your argument? Biologics are messy. It is not chemical synthesis that is easy to assay and finetune. They are growing live modified viruses. No one has made such vaccine before. Pfizer and Moderna vaccine is technologically different, and even they are having scaling issues and delays. The reason for the late notice is that most likely the issues were in the last steps of the complicated manufacturing process. Hopefully they learned from this and will be able to ramp up production.
    - libertine 6y ago
      >The reason for the late notice is that most likely the issues were in the last steps of the complicated manufacturing process. Hopefully they learned from this and will be able to ramp up production. Watching the reaction of AZ CEO reaction, I don't see it in that light. Basically they took enough time to have EU too much compromised to turn around and look for other solutions. And don't buy the narrative that AZ isn't gaining anything from this, they're basically getting funding and facilities to enter the vaccine market. Maybe approving AZ was a mistake, and should have doubled down on Pfizer and aprove either the Russian or Chinese vaccine.
      - NoPie 6y ago
        I am curious now what exactly is that puts people off when hearing from AZ? I remember there was a similar outrage when it turned out that one batch of vaccine used in clinical trials had a half-dose. It was a mistake from a contractor and they were open about it. And yet the reaction on blogosphere was as if they are some kind of frauds. AZ might not have the best PR but if they are more on geeky side I would expect HN blog to understand them even better. At least to me it seems that they know what they are doing. But I studied pharmacy and I can relate to drug manufacturing in technical details so I might not understand how a lay person sees this.
ksec 6y ago
>What about UK? Why don't they come forward and say they also have a block for vaccine exports? I am not following the argument. Are the UK government under any obligation to disclose that to EU? >> It's binary: AZ can't, or won't, move stock from UK. Let just say AZ demand a price increase for moving stock from UK, then what? When the contract for that price was signed, even though it did not explicitly state from which plant, the price are considered as a factor for production location. Hence the best effort. Morale issues aside this is no different to literally all supply chain in other industry.
- libertine 6y ago
  >I am not following the argument. Are the UK government under any obligation to disclose that to EU? I don't think I get the question... is a country obliged to say they won't export something to other country? I guess so, how the hell is the other country supposed to know? Because that's literally what Europe is saying: get the missing stock somewhere else, because there are nothing stopping AZ from doing it. >Let just say AZ demand a price increase for moving stock from UK, then what? When the contract for that price was signed, even though it did not explicitly state from which plant, the price are considered as a factor for production location. Hence the best effort. Morale issues aside this is no different to literally all supply chain in other industry. Well AZ is the one that told 2 days ago that it won't fulfill a order of 100 million doses due to March, 30-60 days away, by 70 million, so I guess they are the ones that should figure out that fuck up, if they have to do it at loss or if they have to ask more for it. They only figured out 2 days ago they will slip a order by 70%, and hide behind their "best effort"? They had be preparing this shipment since at October 2020, at best November 2020 - and only now they figure out they will miss out on it? Again, something doesn't add up. The EU could have done a lot more if they knew they couldn't have fulfilled this order.
  - ksec 6y ago
    >I don't think I get the question... is a country obliged to say they won't export something to other country? I guess so, how the hell is the other country supposed to know? Again, why should they export it? When the whole UK site was paid and set up by UK government before it was handed to AZ for further development. There are no obligations from AZ to fulfil that order from another plant. It is the same with Silicon Wafer, Foods, Metals. If you want something specific, production has to be planned ahead in advance. >Well AZ is the one that told 2 days ago that it won't fulfill a order of 100 million doses due to March Which is absolutely normal if their yield aren't up to standard. It is new, sometimes things dont work. I dont have any experience with Vaccine Production but these things takes time. Supply Chain and Production basics and fundamentals are nearly the same across all industries. Which is the same thing with Germans complaining about TSMC holding up Wafer capacity from their Cars manufacturers. What lots of Bollocks. Worth pointing out again, they are doing this at "Cost". I am in agreement with NoPie. Should the UK share some of its vaccine to its neighbour for good gestures? Yes. Are they obliged to do so? No.

NoPie 6y ago

The major fault would be ineffective vaccine or the one with bad side-effects. Or not being able to manufacture at all. They did very well, all things considered. Normally setting up such manufacturing takes years. They didn't screw up. Just having some teething problems that will soon be solved.

libertine 6y ago
I'm sorry but I don't think you understand how serious this is: let me reframe this. AZ told the EU, 2 days ago, that the order to be delivered by March is missing 70 MILLION OUT OF 100 MILLION doses. This order takes MONTHS to prepare - just to put it in perspective. Imagine a production capacity of 2.000.000 doses per week, it would take AZ 50 WEEKS TO FULFILL THIS ORDER. And 8 weeks before delivery is when they realize that they will miss the delivery by 70.000.000 doses? Are you kidding me? 70.000.000 is enough to give immunize plenty of European countries alone, and they remember to notify the EU few weeks before their delivery.
- NoPie 6y ago
  What exactly is your argument? Biologics are messy. It is not chemical synthesis that is easy to assay and finetune. They are growing live modified viruses. No one has made such vaccine before. Pfizer and Moderna vaccine is technologically different, and even they are having scaling issues and delays. The reason for the late notice is that most likely the issues were in the last steps of the complicated manufacturing process. Hopefully they learned from this and will be able to ramp up production.
  - libertine 6y ago
    >The reason for the late notice is that most likely the issues were in the last steps of the complicated manufacturing process. Hopefully they learned from this and will be able to ramp up production. Watching the reaction of AZ CEO reaction, I don't see it in that light. Basically they took enough time to have EU too much compromised to turn around and look for other solutions. And don't buy the narrative that AZ isn't gaining anything from this, they're basically getting funding and facilities to enter the vaccine market. Maybe approving AZ was a mistake, and should have doubled down on Pfizer and aprove either the Russian or Chinese vaccine.
    - NoPie 6y ago
      I am curious now what exactly is that puts people off when hearing from AZ? I remember there was a similar outrage when it turned out that one batch of vaccine used in clinical trials had a half-dose. It was a mistake from a contractor and they were open about it. And yet the reaction on blogosphere was as if they are some kind of frauds. AZ might not have the best PR but if they are more on geeky side I would expect HN blog to understand them even better. At least to me it seems that they know what they are doing. But I studied pharmacy and I can relate to drug manufacturing in technical details so I might not understand how a lay person sees this.

ksec 6y ago

>What about UK? Why don't they come forward and say they also have a block for vaccine exports? I am not following the argument. Are the UK government under any obligation to disclose that to EU? >> It's binary: AZ can't, or won't, move stock from UK. Let just say AZ demand a price increase for moving stock from UK, then what? When the contract for that price was signed, even though it did not explicitly state from which plant, the price are considered as a factor for production location. Hence the best effort. Morale issues aside this is no different to literally all supply chain in other industry.

libertine 6y ago
>I am not following the argument. Are the UK government under any obligation to disclose that to EU? I don't think I get the question... is a country obliged to say they won't export something to other country? I guess so, how the hell is the other country supposed to know? Because that's literally what Europe is saying: get the missing stock somewhere else, because there are nothing stopping AZ from doing it. >Let just say AZ demand a price increase for moving stock from UK, then what? When the contract for that price was signed, even though it did not explicitly state from which plant, the price are considered as a factor for production location. Hence the best effort. Morale issues aside this is no different to literally all supply chain in other industry. Well AZ is the one that told 2 days ago that it won't fulfill a order of 100 million doses due to March, 30-60 days away, by 70 million, so I guess they are the ones that should figure out that fuck up, if they have to do it at loss or if they have to ask more for it. They only figured out 2 days ago they will slip a order by 70%, and hide behind their "best effort"? They had be preparing this shipment since at October 2020, at best November 2020 - and only now they figure out they will miss out on it? Again, something doesn't add up. The EU could have done a lot more if they knew they couldn't have fulfilled this order.
- ksec 6y ago
  >I don't think I get the question... is a country obliged to say they won't export something to other country? I guess so, how the hell is the other country supposed to know? Again, why should they export it? When the whole UK site was paid and set up by UK government before it was handed to AZ for further development. There are no obligations from AZ to fulfil that order from another plant. It is the same with Silicon Wafer, Foods, Metals. If you want something specific, production has to be planned ahead in advance. >Well AZ is the one that told 2 days ago that it won't fulfill a order of 100 million doses due to March Which is absolutely normal if their yield aren't up to standard. It is new, sometimes things dont work. I dont have any experience with Vaccine Production but these things takes time. Supply Chain and Production basics and fundamentals are nearly the same across all industries. Which is the same thing with Germans complaining about TSMC holding up Wafer capacity from their Cars manufacturers. What lots of Bollocks. Worth pointing out again, they are doing this at "Cost". I am in agreement with NoPie. Should the UK share some of its vaccine to its neighbour for good gestures? Yes. Are they obliged to do so? No.