4 ms·

I would say it is fair. The problem is the manufacturing process. The vaccine is slowly grown in large volume bioreactors. If you need long time from investmen

by NoPie 6y ago

I would say it is fair. The problem is the manufacturing process. The vaccine is slowly grown in large volume bioreactors. If you need long time from investment till finished product, then obviously people who invested sooner can expect that they receive the product before those who invested only now. What happened is that both the first UK and the first EU batch had a low yield. The problems were (hopefully) fixed but it will be months before the next batch will be ready. If the EU had invested sooner, these problems might have been already fixed by now. The UK risked more with earlier investment, so they should get some payout from the risk. From the moral side I think that it would be fair for the UK to send some vaccine supplies to the EU to show solidarity. Maybe they will do if we talk about this more dispassionately. On the other hand, legal threats are not going to work and may only spoil relationships.

thefounder 6y ago
>> I would say it is fair. What has "fair" to do with an agreement/contract?
- NoPie 6y ago
  Exactly, it has nothing to do with the contract. If I make an agreement to delivery 100 million vaccine doses tomorrow and then fail to do it, so what? Concentrate on real issues, on what we can or cannot do, not on some lawyers' fantasies.
  - CogitoCogito 6y ago
    Is AZ decreasing their delivery to the UK and Europe by the same percentage? edit: I find the downvotes without explanation a bit depressing. I'm replying to a post containing this: > Concentrate on real issues, on what we can or cannot do, not on some lawyers' fantasies. Decreasing UK and Euro deliveries equally is clearly something that we can do and not some legal fantasy.
    - s1artibartfast 6y ago
      >Decreasing UK and Euro deliveries equally is clearly something that we can do and not some legal fantasy. It is technically feasible and contractually feasible, just not under the current agreements. The problem is that updating the agreements would be a 3 way negotiation with the UK who has all the leverage. Due to current political divide between EU and UK, the EU doesn't want to enter this negotiation, not that I think it would easy. It would probably be political suicide for the UK government to publically reduce domestic vaccine delivery unless EU offered some incredible incentives. The EU knows this and is instead paining AZ as the bad guy.
      - CogitoCogito 6y ago
        Why would this involve negotiation with the UK? They would just renege on that contract and deliver less than agreed. AZ seems to be reneging on its contract with the EU already (at least if agree with the argument that AZ can't just put their UK production outside the EU calculations).
        s1artibartfast 6y ago
        As I understand it, AZ is not reneging on any contracts. AstraZeneca contract make its "Best Reasonable Effort" to meet EU demand, without compelling the company to stick to a specific timetable. The hangups seems to be if "Best Reasonable Effort" means includes invalidating contracts with other countries. I think this is a hard case to make. If EU manufactured vaccines are going to UK in substantial volume, I would say they are reneging by going above and beyond contractual obligations to UK, to the detriment of the EU. It makes absolute sense for EU to request this info. >at least if agree with the argument that AZ can't just put their UK production outside the EU calculations I'm not sure what you meant by calculations, but took my best guess above. Another factor is that the EU doesn't want to anger the UK by forcing AZ to break UK contract now, because in the long run, they want exports of UK production.
        CogitoCogito 6y ago
  - thefounder 6y ago
    Well, if you sign a binding agreement to deliver 100 doses of vaccine then I will use all the levers to make comply. What's wrong with this? I'm not forcing you to do more than you signed up for. The morality/politica issue is a different issue and I believe there are diplomatic channels to deal with it.

by NoPie 6y ago

thefounder 6y ago

>> I would say it is fair. What has "fair" to do with an agreement/contract?

NoPie 6y ago
Exactly, it has nothing to do with the contract. If I make an agreement to delivery 100 million vaccine doses tomorrow and then fail to do it, so what? Concentrate on real issues, on what we can or cannot do, not on some lawyers' fantasies.
- CogitoCogito 6y ago
  Is AZ decreasing their delivery to the UK and Europe by the same percentage? edit: I find the downvotes without explanation a bit depressing. I'm replying to a post containing this: > Concentrate on real issues, on what we can or cannot do, not on some lawyers' fantasies. Decreasing UK and Euro deliveries equally is clearly something that we can do and not some legal fantasy.
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    >Decreasing UK and Euro deliveries equally is clearly something that we can do and not some legal fantasy. It is technically feasible and contractually feasible, just not under the current agreements. The problem is that updating the agreements would be a 3 way negotiation with the UK who has all the leverage. Due to current political divide between EU and UK, the EU doesn't want to enter this negotiation, not that I think it would easy. It would probably be political suicide for the UK government to publically reduce domestic vaccine delivery unless EU offered some incredible incentives. The EU knows this and is instead paining AZ as the bad guy.
    - CogitoCogito 6y ago
      Why would this involve negotiation with the UK? They would just renege on that contract and deliver less than agreed. AZ seems to be reneging on its contract with the EU already (at least if agree with the argument that AZ can't just put their UK production outside the EU calculations).
      - s1artibartfast 6y ago
        As I understand it, AZ is not reneging on any contracts. AstraZeneca contract make its "Best Reasonable Effort" to meet EU demand, without compelling the company to stick to a specific timetable. The hangups seems to be if "Best Reasonable Effort" means includes invalidating contracts with other countries. I think this is a hard case to make. If EU manufactured vaccines are going to UK in substantial volume, I would say they are reneging by going above and beyond contractual obligations to UK, to the detriment of the EU. It makes absolute sense for EU to request this info. >at least if agree with the argument that AZ can't just put their UK production outside the EU calculations I'm not sure what you meant by calculations, but took my best guess above. Another factor is that the EU doesn't want to anger the UK by forcing AZ to break UK contract now, because in the long run, they want exports of UK production.
        CogitoCogito 6y ago
- thefounder 6y ago
  Well, if you sign a binding agreement to deliver 100 doses of vaccine then I will use all the levers to make comply. What's wrong with this? I'm not forcing you to do more than you signed up for. The morality/politica issue is a different issue and I believe there are diplomatic channels to deal with it.