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> There is no reason in principle that they couldn't do this as soon as you fill out the paperwork, i.e. on March 1st the instant you lose your other job and be

> There is no reason in principle that they couldn't do this as soon as you fill out the paperwork, i.e. on March 1st the instant you lose your other job and become a sole proprietor with no income. But you won't really know if March is going to be income-less until it is over. On March 1st I may still be hopeful that tomorrow will be a better day. Soon it is the 31st and I realize I didn't make anything. You're still dependent on hindsight, no? Whereas UBI fronts the money and then if March 15th provided me a major windfall, I can give it back. We can shrink the period even further. Let's say a day. If you cannot find a source of income on March 1st, you can submit the paperwork at the end of the day. But you're still looking to the past, whereas UBI would give you the money first and then adjust accordingly in the future. In the real world there is always going to be some kind of lag to the time to filing the paper work. There isn't a constant stream of conscious delivered to the tax man. And reporting daily is a huge amount of overhead for someone. I cannot imagine in practice that it would be practical to provide such reporting more often than a weekly/bi-weekly schedule at the very most. The length of period doesn't actually matter here, though. The logic is exactly the same if you report every second or only once per year. I'm afraid I'm still not seeing how a negative income tax can ever provide you the money before you know what your income is (the past). In contrast, UBI assumes you will have no income and then is clawed back if that assumption is false (the future). That is not just framing, there is a practical difference in the real world as far as I can see in your examples.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> But you won't really know if March is going to be income-less until it is over. On March 1st I may still be hopeful that tomorrow will be a better day. Soon it is the 31st and I realize I didn't make anything. You're still dependent on hindsight, no? You can specify how much withholding you want. There are just penalties if you end up owing too much in the end, because otherwise people would specify none all the time and we'd be back to tax debtors prisons when they didn't have the money at the end of the year. So you can say on March 1st that you want the $1000 now. Then on March 3rd when you find a new job, you immediately go back and specify a different withholding amount which claws it back so you don't have to pay the penalty for not withholding enough now that you're making more money again. > And reporting daily is a huge amount of overhead for someone. Not if you're only reporting changes in your withholding amount. Then there is only something to file when your job status changes. You lose your job, you file a status change, money is immediately transferred into your account. You get a new job, you file again. At any other time there is nothing you have to do. > The logic is exactly the same if you report every second or only once per year. Other than the immense practical difference between having to wait for money for one year and having to wait for money for one second. And even that doesn't exist because filing doesn't have to happen after the fact at all. If it's February 15th and your employer says you're laid off in two weeks, you can change your filing status before March 1st and get the money at exactly the same time.
- randomdata 6y ago
  > So you can say on March 1st that you want the $1000 now. So, you state that in the morning - every morning – assuming you won't have an income and then when you hit it big on GME stock at lunchtime, you pay it back at 5PM? Seems like a lot of work that won't happen in practice. It is not like you can know in advance if you will have income for the day or not.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago

> But you won't really know if March is going to be income-less until it is over. On March 1st I may still be hopeful that tomorrow will be a better day. Soon it is the 31st and I realize I didn't make anything. You're still dependent on hindsight, no? You can specify how much withholding you want. There are just penalties if you end up owing too much in the end, because otherwise people would specify none all the time and we'd be back to tax debtors prisons when they didn't have the money at the end of the year. So you can say on March 1st that you want the $1000 now. Then on March 3rd when you find a new job, you immediately go back and specify a different withholding amount which claws it back so you don't have to pay the penalty for not withholding enough now that you're making more money again. > And reporting daily is a huge amount of overhead for someone. Not if you're only reporting changes in your withholding amount. Then there is only something to file when your job status changes. You lose your job, you file a status change, money is immediately transferred into your account. You get a new job, you file again. At any other time there is nothing you have to do. > The logic is exactly the same if you report every second or only once per year. Other than the immense practical difference between having to wait for money for one year and having to wait for money for one second. And even that doesn't exist because filing doesn't have to happen after the fact at all. If it's February 15th and your employer says you're laid off in two weeks, you can change your filing status before March 1st and get the money at exactly the same time.

randomdata 6y ago
> So you can say on March 1st that you want the $1000 now. So, you state that in the morning - every morning – assuming you won't have an income and then when you hit it big on GME stock at lunchtime, you pay it back at 5PM? Seems like a lot of work that won't happen in practice. It is not like you can know in advance if you will have income for the day or not.