6 ms·

Once the mandis are gone, what prevents a monopolized market from then strong-arming farmers into bad deals? Farmers do not have leverage to negotiate good deal

by xrisk 6y ago

Once the mandis are gone, what prevents a monopolized market from then strong-arming farmers into bad deals? Farmers do not have leverage to negotiate good deals with big corps, and when the mandis eventually die away (simply due to this bill); they will be forced to enter into exploitative deals. EDIT > But can ONLY sell the produce to the local Mandi. This is factually incorrect. Only about 30% of produce is sold in mandis. [1] [2] [1] https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/agriculture/by-pushing-farm-bills-through-modi-government-has-put-democracy-at-crossroads-73647 https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/agriculture/by-pushing-f... [2] https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opinion/can-free-trade-and-corporate-farming-improve-farmer-income/article32745489.ece https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opinion/can-free-trade-...

youeseh 6y ago
> What prevents a monopolized market? I'm not sure if the Indian government does this, but in some countries the government breaks up monopolies and tries to prevent them from forming in the first place. I think the new laws allow anyone to approach a farmer with a better deal, and if the farmer chooses, they can even try to sell directly to the end customers.
- xrisk 6y ago
  The Indian government actively colludes with big corp; forget about breaking up monopolies (see: Jio). As for the claim that the new laws allow anybody to approach a farmer with a better deal; sure that works in theory -- but notice that 1) that only works if there isn't a monopoly that drives prices (consider Jio that successfully monopolized telecom in India and now effectively sets prices throughout the industry) 2) farmers would be contractually obligated to sell produce (which would be a long-term deal). The issue might be alleviated if the government promises to enforce a minimum price on all contracts made, but it will do nothing of that sort. As for selling directly to end customers, in my limited knowledge, that is not a thing in India.
  - qart 6y ago
    Jio is not a monopoly by any stretch of imagination. My family is entirely on Airtel. No one has felt the need to switch. Among all my friends, only one person uses Jio.
    - xrisk 6y ago
      ... You realize that it set pricing across operators forcing literally every single one of them into losses?
      - qart 6y ago
        No one can "realize" fake facts. Here are some real facts: https://assets.airtel.in/teams/simplycms/web/docs/Bharti_Airtel_Services_Limited_31March2020.pdf https://assets.airtel.in/teams/simplycms/web/docs/Bharti_Air...
        xrisk 6y ago
        You've linked me to a subsidiary [1] (that too one that sells telecom hardware)? Airtel the co has made 300M INR in losses for 2019-2020 [2] [1]: https://www.emis.com/php/company-profile/IN/Bharti_Airtel_Services_Ltd_en_1621401.html https://www.emis.com/php/company-profile/IN/Bharti_Airtel_Se... [2]: https://assets.airtel.in/teams/simplycms/web/docs/Airtel-Integrated_Report_and_Annual_Financial_Statements_2019-20.pdf https://assets.airtel.in/teams/simplycms/web/docs/Airtel-Int...
        qart 6y ago
        I linked you to Airtel's Indian telecom business, i.e. the business in direct competition to Jio. The document you linked to says it's about "Operations in 18 countries including India and Sri Lanka", offering many kinds of services unrelated to telecom.
        xrisk 6y ago
        From [1]: > Bharti Airtel Services Limited (BASL) engages mainly in selling of hardware for internet and satellite business. Also please do elaborate on what sources of revenue that Airtel has that cause its 300M in loss while (as you claim) it makes profits in their telecom?
- srean 6y ago
  Indeed. I am against these laws because there are no such safeguards. In fact these laws take away the right to approach the courts in case of a dispute. Previously the state government could conduct raids in case hoarding of supplies were indicated. According to these laws the state governments cannot do that on the basis of rising prices till the scarcity pushes the price up by another 100%. Agri needs reform, but that does not mean that the proposed ones are what is needed.
bythckr 6y ago
> Once the mandis are gone Where are the mandis going? If they are non-competitive, they are out. But if they lose their non-sense and compete, they can be around. Also, the people working at the Mandis (Mandi employees), they are also free to start their own company that compete with the Mandis. > what prevents a monopolized market from then strong-arming farmers into bad deals? This law, which prevents monolopy. The current monopoly is the Mandi. How will be farmers be strong-armed to a bad deal if they have options to choose? > This is factually incorrect. My mistake, "But can ONLY sell the produce to the local Mandi at some states". Punjab is an example of were Mandis have complete power. While in other states like TN, Bihar, MP, UP and more have already changed the rule. > Only about 30% of produce is sold in mandis. that is a bit misleading as Mandis dont have prominence is all states. But in Punjab where they are there, no one is allowed.
- xrisk 6y ago
  > Where are the mandis going? If they are non-competitive, they are out. They would be non-competitive because of the no taxation clause that the bill has -- allowing big corp to undercut the mandis. Not to mention that corps are known to take losses just to establish market monopoly (see Jio). > But in Punjab where they are there, no one is allowed. I don't understand why you cite the mandi as a monopoly, when in the existing system a farmer can choose to sell anywhere they want? Let the big corps procure from the farmers, at a "competitive price" as you say. Why should they deserve tax breaks? The fact of the matter is that the mandi is desirable and has contributed to the material success of Punjab's farmers. There is no doubt that there are inefficiencies and leakages, but to do away with them in deference to the gods of the "free market" is a bit questionable. Unrelated quote: "the quality of public education might not be very good, but that doesn't mean we do away with it". As for your comparison with other states, I would recommend you check out this article: https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/why-punjab-should-not-go-the-bihar-way-on-agriculture-reforms/story-hswbTv848qRBr8F0YysuMI_amp.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/why-punjab-should-not...
  - sbmthakur 6y ago
    Why will anyone pay the Mandi cess if they are not operating in a Mandi?

by xrisk 6y ago

youeseh 6y ago

> What prevents a monopolized market? I'm not sure if the Indian government does this, but in some countries the government breaks up monopolies and tries to prevent them from forming in the first place. I think the new laws allow anyone to approach a farmer with a better deal, and if the farmer chooses, they can even try to sell directly to the end customers.

xrisk 6y ago
The Indian government actively colludes with big corp; forget about breaking up monopolies (see: Jio). As for the claim that the new laws allow anybody to approach a farmer with a better deal; sure that works in theory -- but notice that 1) that only works if there isn't a monopoly that drives prices (consider Jio that successfully monopolized telecom in India and now effectively sets prices throughout the industry) 2) farmers would be contractually obligated to sell produce (which would be a long-term deal). The issue might be alleviated if the government promises to enforce a minimum price on all contracts made, but it will do nothing of that sort. As for selling directly to end customers, in my limited knowledge, that is not a thing in India.
- qart 6y ago
  Jio is not a monopoly by any stretch of imagination. My family is entirely on Airtel. No one has felt the need to switch. Among all my friends, only one person uses Jio.
  - xrisk 6y ago
    ... You realize that it set pricing across operators forcing literally every single one of them into losses?
    - qart 6y ago
      No one can "realize" fake facts. Here are some real facts: https://assets.airtel.in/teams/simplycms/web/docs/Bharti_Airtel_Services_Limited_31March2020.pdf https://assets.airtel.in/teams/simplycms/web/docs/Bharti_Air...
      - xrisk 6y ago
        You've linked me to a subsidiary [1] (that too one that sells telecom hardware)? Airtel the co has made 300M INR in losses for 2019-2020 [2] [1]: https://www.emis.com/php/company-profile/IN/Bharti_Airtel_Services_Ltd_en_1621401.html https://www.emis.com/php/company-profile/IN/Bharti_Airtel_Se... [2]: https://assets.airtel.in/teams/simplycms/web/docs/Airtel-Integrated_Report_and_Annual_Financial_Statements_2019-20.pdf https://assets.airtel.in/teams/simplycms/web/docs/Airtel-Int...
        qart 6y ago
        I linked you to Airtel's Indian telecom business, i.e. the business in direct competition to Jio. The document you linked to says it's about "Operations in 18 countries including India and Sri Lanka", offering many kinds of services unrelated to telecom.
        xrisk 6y ago
        From [1]: > Bharti Airtel Services Limited (BASL) engages mainly in selling of hardware for internet and satellite business. Also please do elaborate on what sources of revenue that Airtel has that cause its 300M in loss while (as you claim) it makes profits in their telecom?
srean 6y ago
Indeed. I am against these laws because there are no such safeguards. In fact these laws take away the right to approach the courts in case of a dispute. Previously the state government could conduct raids in case hoarding of supplies were indicated. According to these laws the state governments cannot do that on the basis of rising prices till the scarcity pushes the price up by another 100%. Agri needs reform, but that does not mean that the proposed ones are what is needed.

bythckr 6y ago

> Once the mandis are gone Where are the mandis going? If they are non-competitive, they are out. But if they lose their non-sense and compete, they can be around. Also, the people working at the Mandis (Mandi employees), they are also free to start their own company that compete with the Mandis. > what prevents a monopolized market from then strong-arming farmers into bad deals? This law, which prevents monolopy. The current monopoly is the Mandi. How will be farmers be strong-armed to a bad deal if they have options to choose? > This is factually incorrect. My mistake, "But can ONLY sell the produce to the local Mandi at some states". Punjab is an example of were Mandis have complete power. While in other states like TN, Bihar, MP, UP and more have already changed the rule. > Only about 30% of produce is sold in mandis. that is a bit misleading as Mandis dont have prominence is all states. But in Punjab where they are there, no one is allowed.

xrisk 6y ago
> Where are the mandis going? If they are non-competitive, they are out. They would be non-competitive because of the no taxation clause that the bill has -- allowing big corp to undercut the mandis. Not to mention that corps are known to take losses just to establish market monopoly (see Jio). > But in Punjab where they are there, no one is allowed. I don't understand why you cite the mandi as a monopoly, when in the existing system a farmer can choose to sell anywhere they want? Let the big corps procure from the farmers, at a "competitive price" as you say. Why should they deserve tax breaks? The fact of the matter is that the mandi is desirable and has contributed to the material success of Punjab's farmers. There is no doubt that there are inefficiencies and leakages, but to do away with them in deference to the gods of the "free market" is a bit questionable. Unrelated quote: "the quality of public education might not be very good, but that doesn't mean we do away with it". As for your comparison with other states, I would recommend you check out this article: https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/why-punjab-should-not-go-the-bihar-way-on-agriculture-reforms/story-hswbTv848qRBr8F0YysuMI_amp.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/why-punjab-should-not...
- sbmthakur 6y ago
  Why will anyone pay the Mandi cess if they are not operating in a Mandi?