5 ms·

> Development is literally the simplest part of the problem set. This is the single most important and insightful sentence that a lot of HN-ers are going to re

by eckza 6y ago

> Development is literally the simplest part of the problem set. This is the single most important and insightful sentence that a lot of HN-ers are going to read today, and they don't even know it.

whynotminot 6y ago
This guy governments.
eaton 6y ago
I'd never in a million years argue that Deloitte did an awesome job on a large government contract, but it's mind-boggling to watch the regular ritual of HN posters blithely insist that anything more over $20K and a pile of pizzas for government infrastructure is a scam.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Try offering it to them to do the job and see how quickly they change their tune.
- arminiusreturns 6y ago
  Not only do I think thats a strawman (I don't see that base level argument given that often on hn), but even if it wasn't, the truth is there is a lot, and I mean a fuckton, of money waste at the government level on IT projects. Trying to act like just because they aren't all a scam doesn't mean there isn't a systemic problem of waste that still needs to be addressed, and there are plenty of examples in even recent history that prove this point. More than just waste, the intention to fill good ol boy pockets in priority over getting the job done has significantly weakened the function of the projects, for example, the national security implications of abandoning thinthread that William Binney and Thomas Drake talk about... as just one in a myriad of examples. Virginia didn't have multiple counties become the new primary growth centers of millionares because of fair and balanced bids... and anyone pretending otherwise doesn't know how DC works.
  - matthewdgreen 6y ago
    The story of Healthcare.gov is pretty much the poster for this. They didn’t need to bring in a bunch of clever people to figure out requirements, that was already done and the site just didn’t work. To fix it they had to bring in a team of tech experts, who largely just did tech things —- competently and at a lower cost than the contractors who did the first iteration. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/397784/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article...
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      While true, the team that was chosen also did not had the experience with public facing sites. The contract was given to a team used to do intranet websites in classical JEE format and the letting them lose in such a project, designing as they knew. https://changelog.com/gotime/154 https://changelog.com/gotime/154
  - eaton 6y ago
    > Trying to act like just because they aren't all a scam doesn't mean there isn't a systemic problem of waste that still needs to be addressed No, of course not. But it's undeniable that these threads on HN (and other engineering-dominated forums) always include a healthy dollop of "I'd have done that better, because I'm a good software engineer" disdain. It's often paired with ignorance of how large-scale enterprise and government contracts and procurement work, what roles are necessary for large-scale projects with a significant discovery component, and what the planning process looks like when a team can't afford to launch-and-get-feedback or fail-fast-and-learn their way to a full specification. I mean, this Deloitte project and the rollout are clearly a shitshow on a million levels. They got a no-bid contract for an eye-popping sum, then more than doubled it before the building even started! But the approaches boldly prescribed in most of the comments here wouldn't have produced a working system at the scale needed, either — only a cheaper broken one. A cheaper failure is still a failure.
- cheschire 6y ago
  Tech people are just as vulnerable to the Dunning-Kruger effect as the rest of the population.
asdfman123 6y ago
It makes me wonder what the heck they do at their day jobs. Requirements gathering is the impossible part.
ethbr0 6y ago
> most missteps happen early, dooming projects before anyone sits down to code This one is more insightful (in the big non-tech enterprise / government spaces). Because the takeaway for most HN developers who flip between projects should be: (1) learn how to recognize one of these projects & (2) stay away / find a new job when you do. You'll save years of your work.
- rabidrat 6y ago
  How might you recognize a project like this?
  - mongol 6y ago
    I think a tell-tale sign is if they apply the waterfall approach.
    - razakel 6y ago
      Didn't the guy who coined the term give it as an example of a development model that never worked?
    - GVIrish 6y ago
      That won't save you at all. A lot of federal IT contracts are now written to mandate using Agile or Scrum. Many other forms of dysfunction that doom projects remain.
    - bdavis__ 6y ago
      they will say "agile", but will mean , "all requirements up front with an increment delivered every sprint". which works very well if the developers and the customer really know what they want when the project starts.
  - mpfundstein 6y ago
    Ask yourself some critical questions. - is the scope well defined? - do I understand the value add and agree with it? - do I feel as if all stakeholders are aligned and adequately involved? - do I think the team can pull it off ? - do I think the mood and style fits myself? - do I think the timelines and budgets are realisitc? - do I agree with the level of transparency from management? Etc etc Ask yourself these questions - and more - and you will discover the answer for yourself. In the end listen to your guts. One important nuance: A project can be a major fail overal but a big success for you. Big check, new knowledge, rich connections...
cornel_io 6y ago
It also almost certainly applies to whatever every person here works on, no matter what industry you're in or how close to pure tech it is. In fact, I'm not sure I can think of a single field where even the most brutally difficult software tech problem is actually the difference between success and failure. It can be a prerequisite, and it can often be a bottleneck to iteration speed, but it's never the real problem, which is something SWEs need to understand in order to move up into leadership.

by eckza 6y ago

> Development is literally the simplest part of the problem set. This is the single most important and insightful sentence that a lot of HN-ers are going to read today, and they don't even know it.

whynotminot 6y ago

This guy governments.

eaton 6y ago

I'd never in a million years argue that Deloitte did an awesome job on a large government contract, but it's mind-boggling to watch the regular ritual of HN posters blithely insist that anything more over $20K and a pile of pizzas for government infrastructure is a scam.

saagarjha 6y ago
Try offering it to them to do the job and see how quickly they change their tune.
arminiusreturns 6y ago
Not only do I think thats a strawman (I don't see that base level argument given that often on hn), but even if it wasn't, the truth is there is a lot, and I mean a fuckton, of money waste at the government level on IT projects. Trying to act like just because they aren't all a scam doesn't mean there isn't a systemic problem of waste that still needs to be addressed, and there are plenty of examples in even recent history that prove this point. More than just waste, the intention to fill good ol boy pockets in priority over getting the job done has significantly weakened the function of the projects, for example, the national security implications of abandoning thinthread that William Binney and Thomas Drake talk about... as just one in a myriad of examples. Virginia didn't have multiple counties become the new primary growth centers of millionares because of fair and balanced bids... and anyone pretending otherwise doesn't know how DC works.
- matthewdgreen 6y ago
  The story of Healthcare.gov is pretty much the poster for this. They didn’t need to bring in a bunch of clever people to figure out requirements, that was already done and the site just didn’t work. To fix it they had to bring in a team of tech experts, who largely just did tech things —- competently and at a lower cost than the contractors who did the first iteration. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/397784/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article...
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    While true, the team that was chosen also did not had the experience with public facing sites. The contract was given to a team used to do intranet websites in classical JEE format and the letting them lose in such a project, designing as they knew. https://changelog.com/gotime/154 https://changelog.com/gotime/154
- eaton 6y ago
  > Trying to act like just because they aren't all a scam doesn't mean there isn't a systemic problem of waste that still needs to be addressed No, of course not. But it's undeniable that these threads on HN (and other engineering-dominated forums) always include a healthy dollop of "I'd have done that better, because I'm a good software engineer" disdain. It's often paired with ignorance of how large-scale enterprise and government contracts and procurement work, what roles are necessary for large-scale projects with a significant discovery component, and what the planning process looks like when a team can't afford to launch-and-get-feedback or fail-fast-and-learn their way to a full specification. I mean, this Deloitte project and the rollout are clearly a shitshow on a million levels. They got a no-bid contract for an eye-popping sum, then more than doubled it before the building even started! But the approaches boldly prescribed in most of the comments here wouldn't have produced a working system at the scale needed, either — only a cheaper broken one. A cheaper failure is still a failure.
cheschire 6y ago
Tech people are just as vulnerable to the Dunning-Kruger effect as the rest of the population.

asdfman123 6y ago

It makes me wonder what the heck they do at their day jobs. Requirements gathering is the impossible part.

ethbr0 6y ago

> most missteps happen early, dooming projects before anyone sits down to code This one is more insightful (in the big non-tech enterprise / government spaces). Because the takeaway for most HN developers who flip between projects should be: (1) learn how to recognize one of these projects & (2) stay away / find a new job when you do. You'll save years of your work.

rabidrat 6y ago
How might you recognize a project like this?
- mongol 6y ago
  I think a tell-tale sign is if they apply the waterfall approach.
  - razakel 6y ago
    Didn't the guy who coined the term give it as an example of a development model that never worked?
  - GVIrish 6y ago
    That won't save you at all. A lot of federal IT contracts are now written to mandate using Agile or Scrum. Many other forms of dysfunction that doom projects remain.
  - bdavis__ 6y ago
    they will say "agile", but will mean , "all requirements up front with an increment delivered every sprint". which works very well if the developers and the customer really know what they want when the project starts.
- mpfundstein 6y ago
  Ask yourself some critical questions. - is the scope well defined? - do I understand the value add and agree with it? - do I feel as if all stakeholders are aligned and adequately involved? - do I think the team can pull it off ? - do I think the mood and style fits myself? - do I think the timelines and budgets are realisitc? - do I agree with the level of transparency from management? Etc etc Ask yourself these questions - and more - and you will discover the answer for yourself. In the end listen to your guts. One important nuance: A project can be a major fail overal but a big success for you. Big check, new knowledge, rich connections...

cornel_io 6y ago

It also almost certainly applies to whatever every person here works on, no matter what industry you're in or how close to pure tech it is. In fact, I'm not sure I can think of a single field where even the most brutally difficult software tech problem is actually the difference between success and failure. It can be a prerequisite, and it can often be a bottleneck to iteration speed, but it's never the real problem, which is something SWEs need to understand in order to move up into leadership.