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> But history would suggest that, as a general rule, it is not a great idea to hand extremely large amounts of power and control to a few entities who are only

by zepto 6y ago

> But history would suggest that, as a general rule, it is not a great idea to hand extremely large amounts of power and control to a few entities who are only beholden to (and whose only real aim is to) generate money for investors. I’d like to see this general rule somewhere. People say it often, and cite a few examples, but nothing that amounts to a general rule that I have seen. Also, it’s simply not true that these companies only real aim is to generate money from investors. If you look at the incentive structures for the people involved, that starts to look like an untenable position. For example there are a lot of subject matter s experts whose incentive is to build careers based on their contributions and expertise - e.g. Chris Lattner. This is just one example of how this reductive idea of what a company is simply breaks down. Certainly some companies - usually financial ones - have no other goal, but outside of the financial sector this is just not true. And really - the companies we’re talking about have only had this ‘power’ for just over a decade, and frankly all of their products, Google, Apple, and Facebook are quite lacking. There is no room to compete head to head with them, but plenty of room to innovate and compete in way that they are simply under delivering.

RobertKerans 6y ago
I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. > I'd like to see this general rule somewhere. People say it often, and cite a few examples, but nothing that amounts to a general rule that I have seen. Pick any megacorporation that has reached a point in terms of market cap where they can dictate favourable political/economic conditions for themselves, so from when companies started appearing, so mid-late 1700s. With the caveat that almost all of them have "good" effects from specific perspectives: all huge eastern trading companies (Dutch & British East India), all huge western trading companies (well, sure, they traded slaves but yowza, look at how much they put into the economy!), all huge chemical companies, all large arms manufacturers, all huge oil companies, Japan when split between zaibatsus, etc etc etc. Doesn't seem to matter what sector they are in apart from it involving control of a necessary resource. > Also, it’s simply not true that these companies only real aim is to generate money from investors. Yes it is, that's what the point of a company is. It's literally the definition. It's why a company as a legal/business entity is formed. Hiring subject matter experts -- well, yes, obviously a company will do that, and those experts will have personal reasons for working for the entity that are most often not directly be "enrich this entity". But that is for the most part irrelevant to my point. > And really - the companies we’re talking about have only had this ‘power’ for just over a decade, and frankly all of their products, Google, Apple, and Facebook are quite lacking Their products being lacking from your perspective isn't really relevant here either. Google and AWS control and sell access to physical infrastructure, virtual infrastructure, cross spectrum products built on that infrastructure, tools to use that infrastructure. They control [a large % of] both ends of the pipe, so to speak. Apple, I dunno, I don't know much about how they got to the position they're in. FB, well as a minor example: "ah well, yes, it was kinda sorta mainly organised on our platform using our infrastructure, but whatcha gonna do?". And only having this level of power for a decade? Again, why is that important, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > > Also, it’s simply not true that these companies only real aim is to generate money from investors. > Yes it is, that's what the point of a company is. It's literally the definition. It's literally not the definition; now, it's true that the purpose of a public stock offering, or other offering of equity or debt for money is an effort to raise money from investors, but companies (even more narrowly corporations) need not ever engage in those activities, and even if they do that doesn’t make that purpose of the activity the overall purpose of the organization; it's just an instrument by way of which the organizations seeks it's broader goal.
  - RobertKerans 6y ago
    Ok, I'll concede I'm only talking about the vast majority of companies operating in a capitalist system: their broad goal is to make profit. There are companies formed whose explicit (or hidden) aim is not to make profit, to just use the legal frameworks surrounding companies to their advantage, sure (more than there are companies formed for profit-making purposes? But are they then actually companies in anything but name? Is that too reductive, I dunno) The people working for them may have goals to use that profit in a specific way, but the company is not a person (yes, legally it can pretend to be, but it still isn't). And a public company is almost universally a vehicle to generate money for investors
    - zepto 6y ago
      This really isn’t reflective of reality. The vast majority of companies in a capitalist system are small to medium sized businesses that are constrained in how much money they can ever make. Money is an incentive, and there are certainly some companies whose sold purpose is to make profit. As I said these are in the financial sector. But you only have to look around to see that the vast majority of people who both run companies and who work for them are not in it to maximize profit. That doesn’t mean they don’t want to succeed against competitors, or that they don’t need profits to survive. Of course they do. But you simply can’t reduce a company to this. A common theme on HN and of people in general is people asking how they can make a project profitable. This is indicative that the project is the goal and the profit is merely a necessary condition for achieving it. A lot of public companies these days don’t give control to the investors. This is also consistent with the company not existing primarily as an investment vehicle.

by zepto 6y ago

RobertKerans 6y ago

I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. > I'd like to see this general rule somewhere. People say it often, and cite a few examples, but nothing that amounts to a general rule that I have seen. Pick any megacorporation that has reached a point in terms of market cap where they can dictate favourable political/economic conditions for themselves, so from when companies started appearing, so mid-late 1700s. With the caveat that almost all of them have "good" effects from specific perspectives: all huge eastern trading companies (Dutch & British East India), all huge western trading companies (well, sure, they traded slaves but yowza, look at how much they put into the economy!), all huge chemical companies, all large arms manufacturers, all huge oil companies, Japan when split between zaibatsus, etc etc etc. Doesn't seem to matter what sector they are in apart from it involving control of a necessary resource. > Also, it’s simply not true that these companies only real aim is to generate money from investors. Yes it is, that's what the point of a company is. It's literally the definition. It's why a company as a legal/business entity is formed. Hiring subject matter experts -- well, yes, obviously a company will do that, and those experts will have personal reasons for working for the entity that are most often not directly be "enrich this entity". But that is for the most part irrelevant to my point. > And really - the companies we’re talking about have only had this ‘power’ for just over a decade, and frankly all of their products, Google, Apple, and Facebook are quite lacking Their products being lacking from your perspective isn't really relevant here either. Google and AWS control and sell access to physical infrastructure, virtual infrastructure, cross spectrum products built on that infrastructure, tools to use that infrastructure. They control [a large % of] both ends of the pipe, so to speak. Apple, I dunno, I don't know much about how they got to the position they're in. FB, well as a minor example: "ah well, yes, it was kinda sorta mainly organised on our platform using our infrastructure, but whatcha gonna do?". And only having this level of power for a decade? Again, why is that important, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> > Also, it’s simply not true that these companies only real aim is to generate money from investors. > Yes it is, that's what the point of a company is. It's literally the definition. It's literally not the definition; now, it's true that the purpose of a public stock offering, or other offering of equity or debt for money is an effort to raise money from investors, but companies (even more narrowly corporations) need not ever engage in those activities, and even if they do that doesn’t make that purpose of the activity the overall purpose of the organization; it's just an instrument by way of which the organizations seeks it's broader goal.
- RobertKerans 6y ago
  Ok, I'll concede I'm only talking about the vast majority of companies operating in a capitalist system: their broad goal is to make profit. There are companies formed whose explicit (or hidden) aim is not to make profit, to just use the legal frameworks surrounding companies to their advantage, sure (more than there are companies formed for profit-making purposes? But are they then actually companies in anything but name? Is that too reductive, I dunno) The people working for them may have goals to use that profit in a specific way, but the company is not a person (yes, legally it can pretend to be, but it still isn't). And a public company is almost universally a vehicle to generate money for investors
  - zepto 6y ago
    This really isn’t reflective of reality. The vast majority of companies in a capitalist system are small to medium sized businesses that are constrained in how much money they can ever make. Money is an incentive, and there are certainly some companies whose sold purpose is to make profit. As I said these are in the financial sector. But you only have to look around to see that the vast majority of people who both run companies and who work for them are not in it to maximize profit. That doesn’t mean they don’t want to succeed against competitors, or that they don’t need profits to survive. Of course they do. But you simply can’t reduce a company to this. A common theme on HN and of people in general is people asking how they can make a project profitable. This is indicative that the project is the goal and the profit is merely a necessary condition for achieving it. A lot of public companies these days don’t give control to the investors. This is also consistent with the company not existing primarily as an investment vehicle.