6 ms·

Summers Vindicated (again)

17 points by ivankirigin 18y ago

dissenter 18y ago
Generations from now our scholars will be lumped in the same category as alchemists and geocentrists---much to their discredit.
- william42 18y ago
  Don't you mean "our media"?
  - ivankirigin 18y ago
    Larry Summers was effectively forced to step down by a large body of highly educated academics at Harvard that reacted emotionally to statistically accurate statements. The media didn't help though.
    - jacobolus 18y ago
      That is nonsense. Summers was forced to step down because he picked fights (on hiring/firing/promotions, spending priorities, the balance of power between different parts of the university, etc.) with the majority of the faculty, and forced out some wonderful and very popular members of the community. He tried to run the university like a CEO would run a corporation, and learned that a faculty made up of many of the the top scholars in every field isn’t easily pushed around. The public gaffes were just the icing on the cake. Also, in being “forced to step down”, he was given a University Professorship: not the roughest of deals, to be sure.
      - akd 18y ago
        Summers tried to change a group of people that was extremely resistant to change. They tried to crucify him several times, and were finally successful.
        jacobolus 18y ago
        You imply that the institution’s conservatism is undesirable, and that the faculty was unjustified in resisting Summers’ desired changes, but what qualifies you to make those judgments? Also, “tried to crucify him several times”?
        akd 18y ago
        Yup, they tried to get rid of him when he pushed out Cornel West, then they tried to get rid of him when he was about to fire FAS dean Kirby, and then they finally had their day when he made the gender commments.
      - byrneseyeview 18y ago
        Are you referring to Cornell West? My impression was that Cornell West was not bothering to show up for class and grade papers, and that Summers asked him to do the job he'd been hired to do. I guess that could make someone unpopular.
        jacobolus 18y ago
        No, I’m not. However, “not bothering to show up for class and grade papers” is grossly inaccurate. Here’s a link to West’s radio interview with Tavis Smiley at the time: http://www.npr.org/programs/tavis/features/2002/jan/020107.west.html http://www.npr.org/programs/tavis/features/2002/jan/020107.w...
        byrneseyeview 18y ago
        "In 2000 economist and former U.S. Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers became president of Harvard. In a private meeting with West, Summers allegedly rebuked West for neglecting his scholarship, and spending too much time on his economically profitable projects.[5] Summers allegedly suggested that West produce an academic book befitting his professorial position. West had written several books, some of them widely cited, but his recent output consisted primarily of co-written and edited volumes. According to some reports, Summers also objected to West's production of a CD, the critically panned Sketches of My Culture, and to his political campaigning." And "In October, he had the temerity to meet with Cornel West and suggest that he turn his hand to some serious scholarship-West's most recent production was a rap CD called Sketches of My Culture-and lead the way in fighting the scandal of grade inflation at Harvard, where one of every two grades is an A or A-. What an outrage! West went to sulk in his tent, announcing on the way that he was applying for another year's leave of absence (he had just returned from one) and letting it be known that he might just up and leave Harvard." To whom were you referring? Edit: I accidentally misspelled the professor's name in my previous comment. He is, of course, Cornel and not Cornell.
        jacobolus 18y ago
        First: whoops, I edited my comment while you were replying. Second: Summers was clearly in the wrong at the beginning of his spat with West, who was at the time a University Professor (an extreme honor, which places a professor outside any department, and accords him the ability to teach whatever he likes); West’s outrage at Summers’ disrespect was predictable and easily avoidable. There were several resignations of much-loved deans, &c. in the last couple of years of Summers’ presidency. Go read through the Crimson’s coverage of Summers’ departure if you want a reasonable semi-outsider’s (students aren’t party to internal faculty disputes) look. Edit: that National Review article you quote is garbage: “The unpalatable truth is that Afro-American Studies is a pseudo-discipline—an academic ghetto constructed to accommodate the beneficiaries of ‘affirmative action’—and that the celebrated occupants of Harvard's department are second-class scholars with first-class salaries and perquisites.”
      - helveticaman 18y ago
        Link?
        jacobolus 18y ago
        Some of the story: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=511484 http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=511484
    - dgabriel 18y ago
      I think this analysis of the situation is excellent: http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/Summers.HTM http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/Summers.HTM
mynameishere 18y ago
Men fall to the extremes of every pursuit. Even dressmaking, cooking, and interior design. Both testosterone and a greater likelihood of psychosis would account for this.
DaniFong 18y ago
The article mentions 'Note that we are assuming that mathematical ability is normally distributed - we know the data fit this distribution around the mean but we don't know much about what happens at the very top.' Which is precisely the thing being talked about. Why is this being voted up? The post isn't a relevant part of the discussion, and has little to no bearing on the articles it links to...
helveticaman 18y ago
I guess the "politically correct < correct" debacle is the one thing nowadays future generations will look back on our time and say, "These people were vehemently retarded about some things. [1]" This is the current case of "emperor's new clothes". I for one prefer to have intellectual self-respect and avert my gaze, even though I'm Hispanic. My IQ, as given by race, should be around 93, and I still can't put up with this nonsense. I'd benefit if every brain was suddenly standardized to match that of Anglo-Saxons, but that doesn't mean I'm going to lie to myself. If I have to lie to myself, I'm going to do it about bullshit that isn't quite so pungent. The evidence in favor of cognitive differences across race and gender is enormous; in fact, it couldn't reasonably expected to be any greater. Hundreds of millions of standardized tests, tens of thousands of autopsies, brain scans, hormonal testing, etc. They all align. Not only that, but it's plain even to small children that not all humans were created equal. We're past the point of an emperor's new clothes dilemma; at this point, the emperor is butt-ass naked, trudging through snow, losing toes to frostbite, with big billboards of closeups of his genitals all over the place. I don't publicly call out the nakedness, but I'll at least avert my gaze. [1] They'll say retarded because it will be the most appropriate term for something that is slow and stupid, and because they won't be chastised for saying it.
- time_management 18y ago
  "The evidence in favor of cognitive differences across race and gender is enormous". That differences in realized cognitive ability exist is without dispute. Evidence for a genetic basis for these differences is pretty much nonexistent. The Flynn effect basically shreds the credibility of any argument from so-called "g". Disadvantaged groups invariably score 10-20 points lower than the dominant groups within societies, and when members of both emigrate to other countries, the gap vanishes. Frankly, I'm pretty sure that my barbaric, 7th-century European ancestors would have tested very poorly on any IQ test.
  - helveticaman 18y ago
    The genetic basis is there. First, I suspect the Flynn effect is simply natural selection in modern society; after all, if environment changes in the Galapagos can change the shape of birds beaks in a few generations, industrialization should make people better at desk jobs. And according to Gregory Clark, this has happened to Anglo-Saxons between the 1300s and the 1800s. [1] The same appears to have happened to Ashkenazi Jews and East Asians.[2] Keep in mind they, too, were once very disadvantaged in American society, but there's no keeping them down; both groups are richer than whites now, and had to contend with heavy discrimination on their way to riches. In fact, because of the belief all races should be equally represented, Asian students are heavily penalized in college admissions to make room for African Americans and Hispanics. [3] Finally, I wouldn't go so far as saying emigration eliminates gaps; emigrants aren't necessarily representative of a group, as they're the ones who are ambitious or desperate enough to want to leave. Mexican immigrants in the United States do not form an accurate cross-section of Mexican culture. Nigerian immigrants in United States have the highest rate of PhDs and Master degrees per capita [4], but that has a lot to do with immigration policies. It's a lot easier to get into the States with a Masters or a PhD, so there's selection at hand. [1]http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/papers/clark_evolution.pdf http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/papers/clark_evol... [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence [3]http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fopr.princeton.edu%2Ffaculty%2FTje%2FEspenshadeSSQPtII.pdf&ei=uziPSLHMJZSUeur3gKwH&usg=AFQjCNFM9ICtMOYFosbcEEFCncLmIX26UA&sig2=kHO7HZtc2qijBQqh6LaYlw http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=h... [4]http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/05/nigerians-are-most-educated-nationality.html http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/05/nigerians-are-most-educat...
time_management 18y ago
The issue is one of variance, not mean. When social intelligence is included, I think the average woman is probably smarter than the average man, but men have more variance and are thus more prominent at the extremes. I doubt that there is a strong genetic basis for this. It is probably due, in large part, to the ways boys and girls are raised. Speaking very broadly, and acknowledging the existence of counterexamples; boys are raised to be smart, while girls are raised to be social and cooperative. This means that gifted male children can more easily zip ahead in school, but that the stragglers fall further behind in academic and social skills... and are more likely to end up becoming criminals. A lot of girls feel guilty and insecure about being "too smart" compared to their peers, which holds them back.

17 points by ivankirigin 18y ago

Generations from now our scholars will be lumped in the same category as alchemists and geocentrists---much to their discredit.

william42 18y ago
Don't you mean "our media"?
- ivankirigin 18y ago
  Larry Summers was effectively forced to step down by a large body of highly educated academics at Harvard that reacted emotionally to statistically accurate statements. The media didn't help though.
  - jacobolus 18y ago
    That is nonsense. Summers was forced to step down because he picked fights (on hiring/firing/promotions, spending priorities, the balance of power between different parts of the university, etc.) with the majority of the faculty, and forced out some wonderful and very popular members of the community. He tried to run the university like a CEO would run a corporation, and learned that a faculty made up of many of the the top scholars in every field isn’t easily pushed around. The public gaffes were just the icing on the cake. Also, in being “forced to step down”, he was given a University Professorship: not the roughest of deals, to be sure.
    - akd 18y ago
      Summers tried to change a group of people that was extremely resistant to change. They tried to crucify him several times, and were finally successful.
      - jacobolus 18y ago
        You imply that the institution’s conservatism is undesirable, and that the faculty was unjustified in resisting Summers’ desired changes, but what qualifies you to make those judgments? Also, “tried to crucify him several times”?
        akd 18y ago
        Yup, they tried to get rid of him when he pushed out Cornel West, then they tried to get rid of him when he was about to fire FAS dean Kirby, and then they finally had their day when he made the gender commments.
    - byrneseyeview 18y ago
      Are you referring to Cornell West? My impression was that Cornell West was not bothering to show up for class and grade papers, and that Summers asked him to do the job he'd been hired to do. I guess that could make someone unpopular.
      - jacobolus 18y ago
        No, I’m not. However, “not bothering to show up for class and grade papers” is grossly inaccurate. Here’s a link to West’s radio interview with Tavis Smiley at the time: http://www.npr.org/programs/tavis/features/2002/jan/020107.west.html http://www.npr.org/programs/tavis/features/2002/jan/020107.w...
        byrneseyeview 18y ago
        "In 2000 economist and former U.S. Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers became president of Harvard. In a private meeting with West, Summers allegedly rebuked West for neglecting his scholarship, and spending too much time on his economically profitable projects.[5] Summers allegedly suggested that West produce an academic book befitting his professorial position. West had written several books, some of them widely cited, but his recent output consisted primarily of co-written and edited volumes. According to some reports, Summers also objected to West's production of a CD, the critically panned Sketches of My Culture, and to his political campaigning." And "In October, he had the temerity to meet with Cornel West and suggest that he turn his hand to some serious scholarship-West's most recent production was a rap CD called Sketches of My Culture-and lead the way in fighting the scandal of grade inflation at Harvard, where one of every two grades is an A or A-. What an outrage! West went to sulk in his tent, announcing on the way that he was applying for another year's leave of absence (he had just returned from one) and letting it be known that he might just up and leave Harvard." To whom were you referring? Edit: I accidentally misspelled the professor's name in my previous comment. He is, of course, Cornel and not Cornell.
        jacobolus 18y ago
        First: whoops, I edited my comment while you were replying. Second: Summers was clearly in the wrong at the beginning of his spat with West, who was at the time a University Professor (an extreme honor, which places a professor outside any department, and accords him the ability to teach whatever he likes); West’s outrage at Summers’ disrespect was predictable and easily avoidable. There were several resignations of much-loved deans, &c. in the last couple of years of Summers’ presidency. Go read through the Crimson’s coverage of Summers’ departure if you want a reasonable semi-outsider’s (students aren’t party to internal faculty disputes) look. Edit: that National Review article you quote is garbage: “The unpalatable truth is that Afro-American Studies is a pseudo-discipline—an academic ghetto constructed to accommodate the beneficiaries of ‘affirmative action’—and that the celebrated occupants of Harvard's department are second-class scholars with first-class salaries and perquisites.”
    - helveticaman 18y ago
      Link?
      - jacobolus 18y ago
        Some of the story: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=511484 http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=511484
  - dgabriel 18y ago
    I think this analysis of the situation is excellent: http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/Summers.HTM http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/Summers.HTM

mynameishere 18y ago

Men fall to the extremes of every pursuit. Even dressmaking, cooking, and interior design. Both testosterone and a greater likelihood of psychosis would account for this.

DaniFong 18y ago

The article mentions 'Note that we are assuming that mathematical ability is normally distributed - we know the data fit this distribution around the mean but we don't know much about what happens at the very top.' Which is precisely the thing being talked about. Why is this being voted up? The post isn't a relevant part of the discussion, and has little to no bearing on the articles it links to...

helveticaman 18y ago

I guess the "politically correct < correct" debacle is the one thing nowadays future generations will look back on our time and say, "These people were vehemently retarded about some things. [1]" This is the current case of "emperor's new clothes". I for one prefer to have intellectual self-respect and avert my gaze, even though I'm Hispanic. My IQ, as given by race, should be around 93, and I still can't put up with this nonsense. I'd benefit if every brain was suddenly standardized to match that of Anglo-Saxons, but that doesn't mean I'm going to lie to myself. If I have to lie to myself, I'm going to do it about bullshit that isn't quite so pungent. The evidence in favor of cognitive differences across race and gender is enormous; in fact, it couldn't reasonably expected to be any greater. Hundreds of millions of standardized tests, tens of thousands of autopsies, brain scans, hormonal testing, etc. They all align. Not only that, but it's plain even to small children that not all humans were created equal. We're past the point of an emperor's new clothes dilemma; at this point, the emperor is butt-ass naked, trudging through snow, losing toes to frostbite, with big billboards of closeups of his genitals all over the place. I don't publicly call out the nakedness, but I'll at least avert my gaze. [1] They'll say retarded because it will be the most appropriate term for something that is slow and stupid, and because they won't be chastised for saying it.

time_management 18y ago
"The evidence in favor of cognitive differences across race and gender is enormous". That differences in realized cognitive ability exist is without dispute. Evidence for a genetic basis for these differences is pretty much nonexistent. The Flynn effect basically shreds the credibility of any argument from so-called "g". Disadvantaged groups invariably score 10-20 points lower than the dominant groups within societies, and when members of both emigrate to other countries, the gap vanishes. Frankly, I'm pretty sure that my barbaric, 7th-century European ancestors would have tested very poorly on any IQ test.
- helveticaman 18y ago
  The genetic basis is there. First, I suspect the Flynn effect is simply natural selection in modern society; after all, if environment changes in the Galapagos can change the shape of birds beaks in a few generations, industrialization should make people better at desk jobs. And according to Gregory Clark, this has happened to Anglo-Saxons between the 1300s and the 1800s. [1] The same appears to have happened to Ashkenazi Jews and East Asians.[2] Keep in mind they, too, were once very disadvantaged in American society, but there's no keeping them down; both groups are richer than whites now, and had to contend with heavy discrimination on their way to riches. In fact, because of the belief all races should be equally represented, Asian students are heavily penalized in college admissions to make room for African Americans and Hispanics. [3] Finally, I wouldn't go so far as saying emigration eliminates gaps; emigrants aren't necessarily representative of a group, as they're the ones who are ambitious or desperate enough to want to leave. Mexican immigrants in the United States do not form an accurate cross-section of Mexican culture. Nigerian immigrants in United States have the highest rate of PhDs and Master degrees per capita [4], but that has a lot to do with immigration policies. It's a lot easier to get into the States with a Masters or a PhD, so there's selection at hand. [1]http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/papers/clark_evolution.pdf http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/papers/clark_evol... [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence [3]http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fopr.princeton.edu%2Ffaculty%2FTje%2FEspenshadeSSQPtII.pdf&ei=uziPSLHMJZSUeur3gKwH&usg=AFQjCNFM9ICtMOYFosbcEEFCncLmIX26UA&sig2=kHO7HZtc2qijBQqh6LaYlw http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=h... [4]http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/05/nigerians-are-most-educated-nationality.html http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/05/nigerians-are-most-educat...

time_management 18y ago

The issue is one of variance, not mean. When social intelligence is included, I think the average woman is probably smarter than the average man, but men have more variance and are thus more prominent at the extremes. I doubt that there is a strong genetic basis for this. It is probably due, in large part, to the ways boys and girls are raised. Speaking very broadly, and acknowledging the existence of counterexamples; boys are raised to be smart, while girls are raised to be social and cooperative. This means that gifted male children can more easily zip ahead in school, but that the stragglers fall further behind in academic and social skills... and are more likely to end up becoming criminals. A lot of girls feel guilty and insecure about being "too smart" compared to their peers, which holds them back.