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> but EVs are still only barely price competitive after incentives/gas savings if you are a small/midsize sedan shopper. Is this true if you also consider ma

> but EVs are still only barely price competitive after incentives/gas savings if you are a small/midsize sedan shopper. Is this true if you also consider maintenance? EVs require much less maintenance - no oil changes, filters, no cooling system, no fuel system and associated pumps. Much less time wasted to service those things. Sure, the costs are higher up-front for an EV but cost of ownership over the lifetime of the vehicle are much lower.

Hamuko 6y ago
>so no waiting in line for 45 minutes every two years either Pretty fucked up that you only check for air pollution and not actual road-worthiness. Here all Teslas had an inspection failure rate after of 10.8% (61,000 km driven on average) in 2019 after three years of driving, which is quite bad. For comparison, Mercedes-Benz E-Class and BMW 5-series both had 7.1% (108,000 km and 91,000 km driven on average). This suggests to me that Tesla owners should really spend more time queuing at the shop and at an inspection center.
- throwawayboise 6y ago
  Well Tesla owners are told that their cars need zero maintenance so why would they even think about having them inspected routinely?
  - cptskippy 6y ago
    No they're not. There's a very clear 2 year maintenance cycle.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      They're told their cars need zero maintenance in the same way that Toyota owners who get their information from the internet think their cars have magically been engineered to defy the laws of physics. Sure the fine print in the manual says there's a service schedule, but the pop culture trope says otherwise.
      - cptskippy 6y ago
        No they weren't.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >Pretty fucked up that you only check for air pollution and not actual road-worthiness. Pretty fucked up that some states waste everyone's time and money checking for actual road worthiness when that's basically a rounding error compared to all the other sources of danger on the roads. IMO this is one of the few things CA does right. Obviously CARB is a corrupt money grab shithshow but the idea that you don't really care what people do so long as the cars aren't belching pollution is well thought out. I get that not seeing shitboxes with rusty fenders makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside but mechanical failure simply isn't a common source of accidents compared to everything else and inspection programs can only do so much to address it.
natch 6y ago
You’re right. You should be upvoted, not downvoted. And then there is the cost of accidents. I’ve had two people hit me (their fault in both cases) and both clearly expressed to me their intention to lie about the details of accident to avoid responsibility. They then followed through and lied to the insurance company, just as they said they would. You might think I must live in a sketchy area to encounter such people. Well no. One was a specialist doctor at Stanford hospital and the other worked at Apple. But they both lied. My car defended me from severe financial costs these people could have inflicted on me. Thousands of dollars if you add up the two cases. And that’s in just a couple years of ownership. Both were caught on video and were held responsible despite their lies. Of course it might seem that having cameras has nothing to do with being an EV. But some EVs do have a lot of cameras, and that’s part of the cost people complain about, but it’s also part of how the car has much lower total cost of ownership. It should be factored in when making cost comparisons, just like the lower maintenance costs you point out. The way it does have to do with the car being an EV is that these cameras are backed by a massive battery, so they can be always on. ICE cars can’t come even close to doing that.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  Don't know about that last point. Gas cars have a starter battery and alternators which probably produce enough juice to power cameras, that don't take a lot of power.
  - myself248 6y ago
    While the car is running, certainly. But a 600WH starter battery (which is lead-acid and doesn't really like being run down) is no match for a 60,000WH lithium traction battery. A typical four-camera 360° setup probably draws about 5-10 watts, more if it's performing motion-detection on the images. You'd be unwise to run that overnight on a typical starter battery, especially in winter. But it's a drop in the bucket for an EV. (Personally I think this is an egregious amount of "vampire power" to waste if nothing's going on, but apparently a lot of things are going on.)
    - 6y ago
throwaway894345 6y ago
I’m also curious about resale. Batteries degrade and a good portion of the vehicle’s value is the battery. Right now the resale is quite good on EVs, but I don’t know if that’s attributable to the novelty of EVs or some other factor that won’t last ten years. Perhaps someone who knows more than I do could weigh in?
- skolos 6y ago
  Tesla Model 3 has 100k miles warranty for battery with guarantee that battery will have at least 70% capacity remaining. Actual numbers indicate that degradation usually is significantly less - closer to 90% battery capacity at 100k miles: https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-rep...
  - jjeaff 6y ago
    I suspect the fall off is non-linear. I would be curious to know how they fair in the next 100k miles. I have never bought a car with less than 100k miles on it and I drive pretty nice cars. There are a whole lot of ice cars on the road with more than 100k miles because the last decade has produced very reliable ice vehicles with very replaceable parts.
    - colechristensen 6y ago
      I suspect that tesla modified the drop by giving you a battery which has a higher capacity than advertised and then borrowing from that extra capacity as the battery degrades. This works until it doesn’t and you run out of extra to borrow from. I wish the mechanics of how the battery is managed long term was more open.
    - skolos 6y ago
      The same article I linked discusses model X that had battery replaced under warranty at more than 300k km. The reason for the replacement was not battery degradation. Here's another article showing graph for up to 200k miles. Looks like Teslas holding capacity quite well even beyond 100k: https://insideevs.com/news/429818/tesla-model-s-x-battery-capacity-degradation/ https://insideevs.com/news/429818/tesla-model-s-x-battery-ca...
Gibbon1 6y ago
You should also consider lifespan. I'm a broken record on this but automotive gasoline engine is basically toast after 5000 to 8000 hours. That more than anything else defines the lifespan of a car. Electric motors and fixed gears can go 25,000 to 50,000 hours before they need a rebuild. And they can be rebuilt multiple times. And the industry is talking about EV batteries that will last a million miles. Factor that into the capital cost of owning an EV and it changes everything. Now consider that the usual finance term for car is about a third it's expected life. Typical car lasts 15 years, typical finance is 5 years. If an EV's expected life is 30 years, vs 15 above. Then the reasonable finance term can double to 10 years.
- bumby 6y ago
  If you’re talking specifically about the drive train, that’s one thing. But the reliability of electrical components will likely not come close to approaching 30 years. That’s especially relevant in cars that combine everything into a single display and everything is electrically controlled. The old school vice grip solution to roll down windows won’t work with most new cars :-) There are anecdotes of displays costing $7k, and designed for planned obsolescence after 5-7 years. Ironically, this is the same timeframe where the car depreciation makes a stronger case for buying a new vehicle rather than paying that kind of money on fixing an older one. Point being, I don’t think we can plan on a 30 year EV life anymore than we can count on using the same personal computer for decades.
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    > designed for planned obsolescence after 5-7 years The big three tried that in the 1970's. I have a thoery why it doesn't work. It's because resale value matters. Price out how much people are willing to pay for a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter. Now look at the price of a used sprinter with a 150k miles on it vs a random Ford or Dodge van. It's about $20k vs under $10k Companies that play the planned obsolesce game with EV's are going to find themselves in a quality vs price corner coffin. Because customers rightly perceive the companies cars as shoddy. The company can't charge enough to build quality cars. They get stuck just the way GM did 40 years ago. And is still stuck today.
cmason 6y ago
Check out this total cost of ownership comparison of a wide range of Internal Combustion, Hybrid, and Battery Electric vehicles: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/15/climate/electric-car-cost.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/15/climate/elect...
- bumby 6y ago
  If you go to the source of that graphic, you can find more info. The Tesla’s are fairly high on the cost scale, particularly when comparing to other cars (as opposed to SUVs and trucks which typically have heavy duty components and more expensive maintenance) https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore
  - glaucon 6y ago
    If you don't live in the USA be sure to go into the settings as there are a number of defaults which may not match your life. For me, at least, the price of petrol is about 2.5 what the default is and the default yearly distance driven is at least twice what I would do . As far as I can tell the vehicle sticker prices in the US are about 0.6 to 0.8 what they would be here but you can't change that within the model anyway.
bluGill 6y ago
Gas cars don't need a lot of maintenance. The oil is $40 every few months. Everything else is 100,000 miles if you even bother, or is the same with electric. Cars have improved a lot. Note that there are a lot of myths drving up costs for no reason. A 3000 mile oil change isn't a treat for your engine. In some tests the least engine wear was 8000 miles on the oil. Changing the oil early lets a bit of dust in so is not a good thing if the oil is good. (Synthetic oil is a treat, but the car will be fine without)
- cptskippy 6y ago
  A brand new car might not but after 5 years or 100k miles the maintenance compounds significantly. Are suggesting that people shouldn't keep cars beyond 5 years or 100k miles?
  - deathgrips 6y ago
    How does a Tesla hold up after 300k miles? I'd bet money that a Toyota Corolla has more maintainability than a Tesla.
    - cptskippy 6y ago
      A more fair comparison would be a higher end Camry, Avalon, or L Series Lexus. The Corolla is a very simple car in every respect and inexpensive. Reliability goes down when systems get more complicated and expensive. That's why the Acura and Lexus equivalents of there Honda and Toyota counterparts are much less reliable.
      - Der_Einzige 6y ago
        Lexus was the most reliable automaker according to consumer reports for awhile. Mazda I think recently dethroned them but they are I think still above regular Toyota. Not sure what your source on this claim about Lexus being less reliable than Toyota...
        6y ago
ashtonkem 6y ago
Brakes, don’t forget brakes. Regenerative braking puts less wear and tear onto discs and pads, turning them from wear parts to something that might last the lifetime of the vehicle
dhdhhdd 6y ago
Has anyone ever factored in battery replacement cost? All of the things you mention (pumps, etc.) Break only after long usage (60-80-100k?) Oil changes and filters are reasonably cheap, i guess $50 every 5-10k miles? I would really want to see long term cost of ownership of ev once you include replacement battery. Edit: of course the repairs add up as the car gets older for ic (because of things you mention), but i wonder how does that stack against battery itself.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Batteries typically degrade slowly over the life of the car. Not a ton of hard data since there aren't a lot of Teslas out there with 200-500k miles. The ones that have made it that far seem to retain about 90% capacity after 150k miles.
  - dhdhhdd 6y ago
    90% after 150k miles sounds amazing. I find it unbelievably amazing.
    - Gibbon1 6y ago
      Besides better battery technology. A bigger battery means the discharge rate is lower. The amount of damage discharging does decreases as the discharge rate drops. I think there is a knee around C4-5. And of course the same amount loss in absolute terms is lower as a percentage with a bigger battery. Meaning losing 5kwh on a 30kwh battery is 0.83% vs 5 kwh on a 60kwh battery is only 92%. Proper way to think of battery life is depreciation per mile. If a battery costs $8000 and lasts 200,000 miles, that's 4 cents a mile. If it only last 150,000 miles that's still only 5.3 cents/mile.
kortilla 6y ago
> Is this true if you also consider maintenance Yes, I think you’re vastly overestimating how much these things cost. A $15k car might need a $100/year in oil changes, and then like $500 in service every $30k miles or so. The most expensive part is probably replacing tires, which is common to the electric car as well. All of the maintenance on ICE cars gets bad in that 120k miles+ range. But at that point you’ve had to replace the battery on your Tesla, which almost buys you another new $15k car.
- blendergeek 6y ago
  Do you have a source for these numbers? According to AAA [0] (and my experience), the average cost of car maintenance is upwards of $1000/year. Also its more than just oil that electric cars don't need replaaced. Electric cars don't have transmissions and rarely ever use the brakes two more leading causes of both regular maintenance and costly repairs of ICE cars. [0] https://www.thebalance.com/average-car-maintenance-cost-4775765 https://www.thebalance.com/average-car-maintenance-cost-4775...
  - SECProto 6y ago
    Not OP, but I can pluralize his anecdata. I've had my car for 9 years (~120k miles - sat rarely driven for a couple years in the middle). The only maintenance I've had is oil changes (2 or 3 times a year, so $100 estimate seems accurate), brake pads (once or maybe twice? average annual cost maybe $50), engine air filter (like $10, once or twice a year), tires (similar with electric - cheaper for my car with 15" wheels). The only unexpected maintenance was an electric short in the windshield wiper (could happen just as easily to an electric. $100 labour and a $30 part from a scrap yard)
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      > 2 or 3 times a year That seems massively excessive oil changing for your mileage. Fun fact - the same car manufacturers tell British people to change their oil every 21k miles or 24 months, and tell American people to change their oil every 3k miles or 6 months. For literally the same car, being driven in potentially identical conditions. Americans are just changing their oil needlessly! And they have a whole industry of ‘oil change shops’ you don’t get in many other countries to do the needless work! Bonkers!
notsureaboutpg 6y ago
Consumer Reports in a recent issue highlighted that Tesla's have pretty low reliability (meaning they end up needing more service or have more defects than the average car). I don't know if it's brand specific or what, but that might factor into maintenance costs also
jjav 6y ago
Hard to say long term since EVs are so new. What might be the lifetime maintenance cost of a 30 year old EV with several battery pack changes? No stats exist on that yet. While EVs are unarguably simpler, the gas cars do have 100+ years of effort into making them reliable. Gas cars today (and even back into the 90s) are so extremely reliable that basically no drivetrain work at all is needed well into the 200K mile range unless you get unlucky with a lemon. The things that do tend to generate repair work are shared between the platforms. Electronics & wiring, controls, seats, power windows are in my experience the worst offenders. EVs have all that. Our Fiat 500e's (two) have spent a lot more days in the dealer shop than any of my gas cars ever, FWIW. It is kind of nice to not have to worry about oil changes! But a ~$50 oil change twice a year won't ever make up for the large cost difference of an EV. So purely from a cost perspective (not talking about climate impact!), the EVs are not cheaper to own.
Mauricebranagh 6y ago
Id want to see some figures there - it does depend on how long a battery pack lasts (and the recycling costs of disposing of dead battery packs) - you can swap out a ICE engine relatively easily and you can DIY it on your own driveway.
manmal 6y ago
As an EV owner, I can say that the maintenance cost savings are being hyped up, at least if you buy a new car every 5 years. About 70% of the expenses I had for my recently sold ICE car are relevant for EVs, too: Yearly inspection (yes it’s cheaper with the EV, but still necessary for most brands; pollen filters need changing and AC needs cleaning), new brakes because they were rusty (a problem even worse for EVs), new tires and seasonal tire rotation, new 12V battery (every EV has one too), new wipers, and cleaning. You’ll probably spend a bit less time at the mechanic with an EV, but the difference won’t be that big. If you keep your car for longer, an EV will require less expenses for moving parts, but it might offset this by requiring a new battery after 8-12 years (right now, batteries retail for $12k and more, let’s hope this goes down soon). Given that, fuel savings are really great. With my old ICE car a round trip to the big city cost €10, while with my Ioniq it’s only €3 in summer, when charged at home (even though we pay €0.20/kWh). Maybe €4.50 in winter. So on average we’re looking at something like 60% savings in fuel costs even with our expensive middle european electricity plans.
- fred_is_fred 6y ago
  Curious about brakes because of the things you mentioned brakes and tires cost the most. Original brake pads on my 2014 Subaru lasted me 85k miles, although I did change the fluid at about 40k. That was 5 years for me, so why are the brake issues worse for EVs?
  - nswest23 6y ago
    Brakes can get rusty if they don't get engaged frequently enough b/c you're using the regenerative braking most of the time. I've read that a lot of newer EV's will periodically engage traditional brakes to help alleviate this issue though. FWIW I just had my 2018 leaf inspected and at 22K miles they said the brakes looked good.
    - manmal 6y ago
      Yes, that’s what I meant. For some reason my ICE’s brakes were so rusty after 5 years that they had to be replaced. VW uses drum brakes for that reason now, at least for the ID3. Those don’t really rust AFAIK.
cfn 6y ago
I was in the market recently for an EV but ended up buying ICE instead because of the price difference. The EV cost around 27k Euros, the ICE equivalent cost 17k Euros (both new). I really wanted the EV but even with maintenance costs and gas it would take many years to justify it.

Hamuko 6y ago

>so no waiting in line for 45 minutes every two years either Pretty fucked up that you only check for air pollution and not actual road-worthiness. Here all Teslas had an inspection failure rate after of 10.8% (61,000 km driven on average) in 2019 after three years of driving, which is quite bad. For comparison, Mercedes-Benz E-Class and BMW 5-series both had 7.1% (108,000 km and 91,000 km driven on average). This suggests to me that Tesla owners should really spend more time queuing at the shop and at an inspection center.

throwawayboise 6y ago
Well Tesla owners are told that their cars need zero maintenance so why would they even think about having them inspected routinely?
- cptskippy 6y ago
  No they're not. There's a very clear 2 year maintenance cycle.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    They're told their cars need zero maintenance in the same way that Toyota owners who get their information from the internet think their cars have magically been engineered to defy the laws of physics. Sure the fine print in the manual says there's a service schedule, but the pop culture trope says otherwise.
    - cptskippy 6y ago
      No they weren't.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>Pretty fucked up that you only check for air pollution and not actual road-worthiness. Pretty fucked up that some states waste everyone's time and money checking for actual road worthiness when that's basically a rounding error compared to all the other sources of danger on the roads. IMO this is one of the few things CA does right. Obviously CARB is a corrupt money grab shithshow but the idea that you don't really care what people do so long as the cars aren't belching pollution is well thought out. I get that not seeing shitboxes with rusty fenders makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside but mechanical failure simply isn't a common source of accidents compared to everything else and inspection programs can only do so much to address it.

natch 6y ago

You’re right. You should be upvoted, not downvoted. And then there is the cost of accidents. I’ve had two people hit me (their fault in both cases) and both clearly expressed to me their intention to lie about the details of accident to avoid responsibility. They then followed through and lied to the insurance company, just as they said they would. You might think I must live in a sketchy area to encounter such people. Well no. One was a specialist doctor at Stanford hospital and the other worked at Apple. But they both lied. My car defended me from severe financial costs these people could have inflicted on me. Thousands of dollars if you add up the two cases. And that’s in just a couple years of ownership. Both were caught on video and were held responsible despite their lies. Of course it might seem that having cameras has nothing to do with being an EV. But some EVs do have a lot of cameras, and that’s part of the cost people complain about, but it’s also part of how the car has much lower total cost of ownership. It should be factored in when making cost comparisons, just like the lower maintenance costs you point out. The way it does have to do with the car being an EV is that these cameras are backed by a massive battery, so they can be always on. ICE cars can’t come even close to doing that.

mixmastamyk 6y ago
Don't know about that last point. Gas cars have a starter battery and alternators which probably produce enough juice to power cameras, that don't take a lot of power.
- myself248 6y ago
  While the car is running, certainly. But a 600WH starter battery (which is lead-acid and doesn't really like being run down) is no match for a 60,000WH lithium traction battery. A typical four-camera 360° setup probably draws about 5-10 watts, more if it's performing motion-detection on the images. You'd be unwise to run that overnight on a typical starter battery, especially in winter. But it's a drop in the bucket for an EV. (Personally I think this is an egregious amount of "vampire power" to waste if nothing's going on, but apparently a lot of things are going on.)
  - 6y ago

throwaway894345 6y ago

I’m also curious about resale. Batteries degrade and a good portion of the vehicle’s value is the battery. Right now the resale is quite good on EVs, but I don’t know if that’s attributable to the novelty of EVs or some other factor that won’t last ten years. Perhaps someone who knows more than I do could weigh in?

skolos 6y ago
Tesla Model 3 has 100k miles warranty for battery with guarantee that battery will have at least 70% capacity remaining. Actual numbers indicate that degradation usually is significantly less - closer to 90% battery capacity at 100k miles: https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-rep...
- jjeaff 6y ago
  I suspect the fall off is non-linear. I would be curious to know how they fair in the next 100k miles. I have never bought a car with less than 100k miles on it and I drive pretty nice cars. There are a whole lot of ice cars on the road with more than 100k miles because the last decade has produced very reliable ice vehicles with very replaceable parts.
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    I suspect that tesla modified the drop by giving you a battery which has a higher capacity than advertised and then borrowing from that extra capacity as the battery degrades. This works until it doesn’t and you run out of extra to borrow from. I wish the mechanics of how the battery is managed long term was more open.
  - skolos 6y ago
    The same article I linked discusses model X that had battery replaced under warranty at more than 300k km. The reason for the replacement was not battery degradation. Here's another article showing graph for up to 200k miles. Looks like Teslas holding capacity quite well even beyond 100k: https://insideevs.com/news/429818/tesla-model-s-x-battery-capacity-degradation/ https://insideevs.com/news/429818/tesla-model-s-x-battery-ca...

Gibbon1 6y ago

You should also consider lifespan. I'm a broken record on this but automotive gasoline engine is basically toast after 5000 to 8000 hours. That more than anything else defines the lifespan of a car. Electric motors and fixed gears can go 25,000 to 50,000 hours before they need a rebuild. And they can be rebuilt multiple times. And the industry is talking about EV batteries that will last a million miles. Factor that into the capital cost of owning an EV and it changes everything. Now consider that the usual finance term for car is about a third it's expected life. Typical car lasts 15 years, typical finance is 5 years. If an EV's expected life is 30 years, vs 15 above. Then the reasonable finance term can double to 10 years.

bumby 6y ago
If you’re talking specifically about the drive train, that’s one thing. But the reliability of electrical components will likely not come close to approaching 30 years. That’s especially relevant in cars that combine everything into a single display and everything is electrically controlled. The old school vice grip solution to roll down windows won’t work with most new cars :-) There are anecdotes of displays costing $7k, and designed for planned obsolescence after 5-7 years. Ironically, this is the same timeframe where the car depreciation makes a stronger case for buying a new vehicle rather than paying that kind of money on fixing an older one. Point being, I don’t think we can plan on a 30 year EV life anymore than we can count on using the same personal computer for decades.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  > designed for planned obsolescence after 5-7 years The big three tried that in the 1970's. I have a thoery why it doesn't work. It's because resale value matters. Price out how much people are willing to pay for a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter. Now look at the price of a used sprinter with a 150k miles on it vs a random Ford or Dodge van. It's about $20k vs under $10k Companies that play the planned obsolesce game with EV's are going to find themselves in a quality vs price corner coffin. Because customers rightly perceive the companies cars as shoddy. The company can't charge enough to build quality cars. They get stuck just the way GM did 40 years ago. And is still stuck today.

cmason 6y ago

Check out this total cost of ownership comparison of a wide range of Internal Combustion, Hybrid, and Battery Electric vehicles: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/15/climate/electric-car-cost.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/15/climate/elect...

bumby 6y ago
If you go to the source of that graphic, you can find more info. The Tesla’s are fairly high on the cost scale, particularly when comparing to other cars (as opposed to SUVs and trucks which typically have heavy duty components and more expensive maintenance) https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore https://www.carboncounter.com/#!/explore
- glaucon 6y ago
  If you don't live in the USA be sure to go into the settings as there are a number of defaults which may not match your life. For me, at least, the price of petrol is about 2.5 what the default is and the default yearly distance driven is at least twice what I would do . As far as I can tell the vehicle sticker prices in the US are about 0.6 to 0.8 what they would be here but you can't change that within the model anyway.

bluGill 6y ago

Gas cars don't need a lot of maintenance. The oil is $40 every few months. Everything else is 100,000 miles if you even bother, or is the same with electric. Cars have improved a lot. Note that there are a lot of myths drving up costs for no reason. A 3000 mile oil change isn't a treat for your engine. In some tests the least engine wear was 8000 miles on the oil. Changing the oil early lets a bit of dust in so is not a good thing if the oil is good. (Synthetic oil is a treat, but the car will be fine without)

cptskippy 6y ago
A brand new car might not but after 5 years or 100k miles the maintenance compounds significantly. Are suggesting that people shouldn't keep cars beyond 5 years or 100k miles?
- deathgrips 6y ago
  How does a Tesla hold up after 300k miles? I'd bet money that a Toyota Corolla has more maintainability than a Tesla.
  - cptskippy 6y ago
    A more fair comparison would be a higher end Camry, Avalon, or L Series Lexus. The Corolla is a very simple car in every respect and inexpensive. Reliability goes down when systems get more complicated and expensive. That's why the Acura and Lexus equivalents of there Honda and Toyota counterparts are much less reliable.
    - Der_Einzige 6y ago
      Lexus was the most reliable automaker according to consumer reports for awhile. Mazda I think recently dethroned them but they are I think still above regular Toyota. Not sure what your source on this claim about Lexus being less reliable than Toyota...
      - 6y ago

ashtonkem 6y ago

Brakes, don’t forget brakes. Regenerative braking puts less wear and tear onto discs and pads, turning them from wear parts to something that might last the lifetime of the vehicle

dhdhhdd 6y ago

Has anyone ever factored in battery replacement cost? All of the things you mention (pumps, etc.) Break only after long usage (60-80-100k?) Oil changes and filters are reasonably cheap, i guess $50 every 5-10k miles? I would really want to see long term cost of ownership of ev once you include replacement battery. Edit: of course the repairs add up as the car gets older for ic (because of things you mention), but i wonder how does that stack against battery itself.

ogre_codes 6y ago
Batteries typically degrade slowly over the life of the car. Not a ton of hard data since there aren't a lot of Teslas out there with 200-500k miles. The ones that have made it that far seem to retain about 90% capacity after 150k miles.
- dhdhhdd 6y ago
  90% after 150k miles sounds amazing. I find it unbelievably amazing.
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    Besides better battery technology. A bigger battery means the discharge rate is lower. The amount of damage discharging does decreases as the discharge rate drops. I think there is a knee around C4-5. And of course the same amount loss in absolute terms is lower as a percentage with a bigger battery. Meaning losing 5kwh on a 30kwh battery is 0.83% vs 5 kwh on a 60kwh battery is only 92%. Proper way to think of battery life is depreciation per mile. If a battery costs $8000 and lasts 200,000 miles, that's 4 cents a mile. If it only last 150,000 miles that's still only 5.3 cents/mile.

kortilla 6y ago

> Is this true if you also consider maintenance Yes, I think you’re vastly overestimating how much these things cost. A $15k car might need a $100/year in oil changes, and then like $500 in service every $30k miles or so. The most expensive part is probably replacing tires, which is common to the electric car as well. All of the maintenance on ICE cars gets bad in that 120k miles+ range. But at that point you’ve had to replace the battery on your Tesla, which almost buys you another new $15k car.

blendergeek 6y ago
Do you have a source for these numbers? According to AAA [0] (and my experience), the average cost of car maintenance is upwards of $1000/year. Also its more than just oil that electric cars don't need replaaced. Electric cars don't have transmissions and rarely ever use the brakes two more leading causes of both regular maintenance and costly repairs of ICE cars. [0] https://www.thebalance.com/average-car-maintenance-cost-4775765 https://www.thebalance.com/average-car-maintenance-cost-4775...
- SECProto 6y ago
  Not OP, but I can pluralize his anecdata. I've had my car for 9 years (~120k miles - sat rarely driven for a couple years in the middle). The only maintenance I've had is oil changes (2 or 3 times a year, so $100 estimate seems accurate), brake pads (once or maybe twice? average annual cost maybe $50), engine air filter (like $10, once or twice a year), tires (similar with electric - cheaper for my car with 15" wheels). The only unexpected maintenance was an electric short in the windshield wiper (could happen just as easily to an electric. $100 labour and a $30 part from a scrap yard)
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > 2 or 3 times a year That seems massively excessive oil changing for your mileage. Fun fact - the same car manufacturers tell British people to change their oil every 21k miles or 24 months, and tell American people to change their oil every 3k miles or 6 months. For literally the same car, being driven in potentially identical conditions. Americans are just changing their oil needlessly! And they have a whole industry of ‘oil change shops’ you don’t get in many other countries to do the needless work! Bonkers!

notsureaboutpg 6y ago

Consumer Reports in a recent issue highlighted that Tesla's have pretty low reliability (meaning they end up needing more service or have more defects than the average car). I don't know if it's brand specific or what, but that might factor into maintenance costs also

jjav 6y ago

Hard to say long term since EVs are so new. What might be the lifetime maintenance cost of a 30 year old EV with several battery pack changes? No stats exist on that yet. While EVs are unarguably simpler, the gas cars do have 100+ years of effort into making them reliable. Gas cars today (and even back into the 90s) are so extremely reliable that basically no drivetrain work at all is needed well into the 200K mile range unless you get unlucky with a lemon. The things that do tend to generate repair work are shared between the platforms. Electronics & wiring, controls, seats, power windows are in my experience the worst offenders. EVs have all that. Our Fiat 500e's (two) have spent a lot more days in the dealer shop than any of my gas cars ever, FWIW. It is kind of nice to not have to worry about oil changes! But a ~$50 oil change twice a year won't ever make up for the large cost difference of an EV. So purely from a cost perspective (not talking about climate impact!), the EVs are not cheaper to own.

Mauricebranagh 6y ago

Id want to see some figures there - it does depend on how long a battery pack lasts (and the recycling costs of disposing of dead battery packs) - you can swap out a ICE engine relatively easily and you can DIY it on your own driveway.

manmal 6y ago

As an EV owner, I can say that the maintenance cost savings are being hyped up, at least if you buy a new car every 5 years. About 70% of the expenses I had for my recently sold ICE car are relevant for EVs, too: Yearly inspection (yes it’s cheaper with the EV, but still necessary for most brands; pollen filters need changing and AC needs cleaning), new brakes because they were rusty (a problem even worse for EVs), new tires and seasonal tire rotation, new 12V battery (every EV has one too), new wipers, and cleaning. You’ll probably spend a bit less time at the mechanic with an EV, but the difference won’t be that big. If you keep your car for longer, an EV will require less expenses for moving parts, but it might offset this by requiring a new battery after 8-12 years (right now, batteries retail for $12k and more, let’s hope this goes down soon). Given that, fuel savings are really great. With my old ICE car a round trip to the big city cost €10, while with my Ioniq it’s only €3 in summer, when charged at home (even though we pay €0.20/kWh). Maybe €4.50 in winter. So on average we’re looking at something like 60% savings in fuel costs even with our expensive middle european electricity plans.

fred_is_fred 6y ago
Curious about brakes because of the things you mentioned brakes and tires cost the most. Original brake pads on my 2014 Subaru lasted me 85k miles, although I did change the fluid at about 40k. That was 5 years for me, so why are the brake issues worse for EVs?
- nswest23 6y ago
  Brakes can get rusty if they don't get engaged frequently enough b/c you're using the regenerative braking most of the time. I've read that a lot of newer EV's will periodically engage traditional brakes to help alleviate this issue though. FWIW I just had my 2018 leaf inspected and at 22K miles they said the brakes looked good.
  - manmal 6y ago
    Yes, that’s what I meant. For some reason my ICE’s brakes were so rusty after 5 years that they had to be replaced. VW uses drum brakes for that reason now, at least for the ID3. Those don’t really rust AFAIK.

cfn 6y ago

I was in the market recently for an EV but ended up buying ICE instead because of the price difference. The EV cost around 27k Euros, the ICE equivalent cost 17k Euros (both new). I really wanted the EV but even with maintenance costs and gas it would take many years to justify it.