3 ms·

> While true, the plus side is EVs are still a net CO2 win even when charged by dirty fuel. Are they? Does that include the manufacturing process?

by rapsey 6y ago

zaroth 6y ago
Yes it does. Payback takes a few years depending on the CO2 intensity of the electrical supply, but you do get there even with some coal in the mix. Here is a quite comprehensive analysis: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7.epdf https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7.epdf Edit: you might have better luck with this link; https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7.epdf?referrer_access_token=TPO4EjeSKKekNKMyogr2RNRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0OMBHrNGD6k2npei17x4aWWLctOfIoyfalbH9WNy5EPZCOSWTbm4pfMxuvEuQUnMLszjDPeoVkBlbvKQ2-fEFv3zieSCy-tF3BHi5vbyD3jSnmeEJUBuX-CQG-8gTJdac58sREr6vVjR8UB6iaNQk3HPtlkyjQ_CrjzXvQfqj92Q-LV4hr83vGLMn59vx0SgB-LY8BnZpm4eNzpOVu1YUj-L6h5Nuin9CAfr8Z9PAnatl12HtFSH8xmBvS8ZVRHcwj02-3Co4zD4iHvLosMxgjW&tracking_referrer=www.theguardian.com https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7.epdf?refer...
- im3w1l 6y ago
  I don't have access to that article but does it take into account the notion of marginal power? That any increased load is going to be disproportionally dirty?
  - philipkglass 6y ago
    It's not a given that increased load is going to be disproportionally dirty. Wind farm output typically peaks at night. Wind is a great match for night time battery energy vehicle charging and it has the lowest life cycle CO2 footprint of any electricity source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-cycle_greenhouse_gas_emissions_of_energy_sources#2014_IPCC,_Global_warming_potential_of_selected_electricity_sources https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-cycle_greenhouse_gas_emis... I do like your emphasis on marginal effects. As renewables and BEVs grow it will be a balancing act to pick the most marginally effective resources for emissions abatement. California may soon reach a point where an additional dollar invested in solar doesn't abate as much CO2 as the same dollar invested in transmission, storage, or wind -- even if solar has the lowest instantaneous generation cost.
    - throwawayboise 6y ago
      > Wind farm output typically peaks at night. Is this generally true, or does it depend on geography (e.g. being near the coast)? Where I am in the midwest, it seems that the air normally gets very calm after sunset.
      - philipkglass 6y ago
        I think that it is generally true for land based turbines. Turbines are so tall that wind conditions at hub height can't be easily estimated by what we experience on the ground. Here's a somewhat dated study that shows hourly patterns for wind generation on the ERCOT grid in Texas, which has the largest wind fleet of any state: "The Relationship between Wind Generation and Balancing-Energy Market Prices in ERCOT: 2007–2009" https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy11osti/49415.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy11osti/49415.pdf See Figure 5. Hourly generation reaches a minimum from about 1:00 to 5:00 PM and reaches its maximum around 1:00 AM. Offshore wind output changes less from short term day-night cycles, and generally achieves a higher capacity factor. It is also more expensive to build than onshore wind and no large projects have yet been built for the US, though several are on the drawing board.
        toomuchtodo 6y ago
        As usual, your comments on the topic knock it out of the park. Thanks so much for contributing.
ants_a 6y ago
Yes, but it will take a few years of driving to break even. Example calculation: https://uploads.volkswagen-newsroom.com/system/production/uploaded_files/14448/file/da01b16ac9b580a3c8bc190ea2af27db4e0d4546/Klimabilanz_von_E-Fahrzeugen_Life_Cycle_Engineering.pdf?1556110703 https://uploads.volkswagen-newsroom.com/system/production/up...
paul_f 6y ago
Not sure a coal-powered car is exactly ideal. We need a better solution

> While true, the plus side is EVs are still a net CO2 win even when charged by dirty fuel. Are they? Does that include the manufacturing process?

by rapsey 6y ago

> While true, the plus side is EVs are still a net CO2 win even when charged by dirty fuel. Are they? Does that include the manufacturing process?

zaroth 6y ago

Yes it does. Payback takes a few years depending on the CO2 intensity of the electrical supply, but you do get there even with some coal in the mix. Here is a quite comprehensive analysis: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7.epdf https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7.epdf Edit: you might have better luck with this link; https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7.epdf?referrer_access_token=TPO4EjeSKKekNKMyogr2RNRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0OMBHrNGD6k2npei17x4aWWLctOfIoyfalbH9WNy5EPZCOSWTbm4pfMxuvEuQUnMLszjDPeoVkBlbvKQ2-fEFv3zieSCy-tF3BHi5vbyD3jSnmeEJUBuX-CQG-8gTJdac58sREr6vVjR8UB6iaNQk3HPtlkyjQ_CrjzXvQfqj92Q-LV4hr83vGLMn59vx0SgB-LY8BnZpm4eNzpOVu1YUj-L6h5Nuin9CAfr8Z9PAnatl12HtFSH8xmBvS8ZVRHcwj02-3Co4zD4iHvLosMxgjW&tracking_referrer=www.theguardian.com https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7.epdf?refer...

im3w1l 6y ago
I don't have access to that article but does it take into account the notion of marginal power? That any increased load is going to be disproportionally dirty?
- philipkglass 6y ago
  It's not a given that increased load is going to be disproportionally dirty. Wind farm output typically peaks at night. Wind is a great match for night time battery energy vehicle charging and it has the lowest life cycle CO2 footprint of any electricity source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-cycle_greenhouse_gas_emissions_of_energy_sources#2014_IPCC,_Global_warming_potential_of_selected_electricity_sources https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-cycle_greenhouse_gas_emis... I do like your emphasis on marginal effects. As renewables and BEVs grow it will be a balancing act to pick the most marginally effective resources for emissions abatement. California may soon reach a point where an additional dollar invested in solar doesn't abate as much CO2 as the same dollar invested in transmission, storage, or wind -- even if solar has the lowest instantaneous generation cost.
  - throwawayboise 6y ago
    > Wind farm output typically peaks at night. Is this generally true, or does it depend on geography (e.g. being near the coast)? Where I am in the midwest, it seems that the air normally gets very calm after sunset.
    - philipkglass 6y ago
      I think that it is generally true for land based turbines. Turbines are so tall that wind conditions at hub height can't be easily estimated by what we experience on the ground. Here's a somewhat dated study that shows hourly patterns for wind generation on the ERCOT grid in Texas, which has the largest wind fleet of any state: "The Relationship between Wind Generation and Balancing-Energy Market Prices in ERCOT: 2007–2009" https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy11osti/49415.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy11osti/49415.pdf See Figure 5. Hourly generation reaches a minimum from about 1:00 to 5:00 PM and reaches its maximum around 1:00 AM. Offshore wind output changes less from short term day-night cycles, and generally achieves a higher capacity factor. It is also more expensive to build than onshore wind and no large projects have yet been built for the US, though several are on the drawing board.
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        As usual, your comments on the topic knock it out of the park. Thanks so much for contributing.

ants_a 6y ago

Yes, but it will take a few years of driving to break even. Example calculation: https://uploads.volkswagen-newsroom.com/system/production/uploaded_files/14448/file/da01b16ac9b580a3c8bc190ea2af27db4e0d4546/Klimabilanz_von_E-Fahrzeugen_Life_Cycle_Engineering.pdf?1556110703 https://uploads.volkswagen-newsroom.com/system/production/up...

paul_f 6y ago

Not sure a coal-powered car is exactly ideal. We need a better solution