3 ms·

What is the point of society if we can't look after everyone in it?

by eecks 6y ago

antonvs 6y ago
You can look back historically to answer that question in many ways. One common answer had to do with organizing, managing, and controlling people for the benefit of an elite ruling class. Which is still a reasonable description of e.g. US society today.
- eecks 6y ago
  That makes sense and is an interesting argument. Do you know if there are any books that explore that thought?
  - antonvs 6y ago
    It's a big topic. I don't have any single book in mind, but I can point you to some sources. "Elite theory" in political science and sociology is closely related, e.g.: https://www.britannica.com/topic/elite-theory https://www.britannica.com/topic/elite-theory, which has a history going back to ancient Greece. U. Delaware's polsci department has an intro to this in the US context: https://www1.udel.edu/htr/Psc105/Texts/power.html https://www1.udel.edu/htr/Psc105/Texts/power.html , and there's also this article by a prof at USCS: https://whorulesamerica.ucsc.edu/power/class_domination.html https://whorulesamerica.ucsc.edu/power/class_domination.html Much of Chomsky's writing is concerned with such topics, e.g. https://truthout.org/articles/us-guardian-elite-rulers-date-back-to-nation-s-founding/ https://truthout.org/articles/us-guardian-elite-rulers-date-... , which makes the point that the notion of an elite guardian class goes back to the founding of the US, and it in turn was based on ideas inherited from monarchies. A couple of others of Chomsky's are https://chomsky.info/199606__/ https://chomsky.info/199606__/ or https://chomsky.info/20141202/ https://chomsky.info/20141202/ . These are just examples which deal with particular mechanisms of control which are used by elites to achieve outcomes in their favor. Marx and Engels are relevant here also. Here's the opening sentence of Chapter I of the Communist Manifesto (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-m... ): > "The [written] history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." It goes on to discuss power structures in various types of historical society. There's lots more out there - is there any particular aspect you're interested in?
s1artibartfast 6y ago
I think the other posters comment is a pretty pessimistic take. Humans are inherently tribal and a banded together since before we existed as a species. This wasn’t for the advantage of top animal. It offered protection, Stability, and a way to raise young in this environment. Higher primates will share food when they have access but aren’t communes.I would posit that most historic human societies serve the same function. They provide protection from external threats and stabilize chaotic environment. Peasants received protection from their Lords in exchange for taxes. Looking into more recent human history of the US government served much the same function. There was no redistribution of wealth, and no income taxes until they were added on to fund World War I. The idea that governments acting on behalf of society have the goal of Supporting the poor is a relatively new development. National healthcare insurance was largely a development after World War II, and for most of the countries, support of the poor was handled through private charity until late In the 20th century
- antonvs 6y ago
  I was giving a pervasive example of how "looking after everyone in society" has often not really been the main goal of societies. This is consistent with what you wrote, "The idea that governments acting on behalf of society have the goal of supporting the poor is a relatively new development." > Humans are inherently tribal and a banded together since before we existed as a species. This wasn’t for the advantage of top animal. Modern governments are not tribal societies, though. As I've observed in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25997576 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25997576 , the Communist Manifesto Ch. 1 opens with the sentence, "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles," but adds a footnote about this referring to written history, i.e. history of post-tribal civilizations. > I would posit that most historic human societies serve the same function. Perhaps to some extent, but to help disabuse yourself of the notion of the benevolence of the ruling class in this respect, some of the references in my comment linked above might help. In particular, what Chomsky has to say about the elite "guardian class" in the US: https://truthout.org/articles/us-guardian-elite-rulers-date-back-to-nation-s-founding/ https://truthout.org/articles/us-guardian-elite-rulers-date-...

What is the point of society if we can't look after everyone in it?

by eecks 6y ago

What is the point of society if we can't look after everyone in it?

You can look back historically to answer that question in many ways. One common answer had to do with organizing, managing, and controlling people for the benefit of an elite ruling class. Which is still a reasonable description of e.g. US society today.

eecks 6y ago
That makes sense and is an interesting argument. Do you know if there are any books that explore that thought?
- antonvs 6y ago
  It's a big topic. I don't have any single book in mind, but I can point you to some sources. "Elite theory" in political science and sociology is closely related, e.g.: https://www.britannica.com/topic/elite-theory https://www.britannica.com/topic/elite-theory, which has a history going back to ancient Greece. U. Delaware's polsci department has an intro to this in the US context: https://www1.udel.edu/htr/Psc105/Texts/power.html https://www1.udel.edu/htr/Psc105/Texts/power.html , and there's also this article by a prof at USCS: https://whorulesamerica.ucsc.edu/power/class_domination.html https://whorulesamerica.ucsc.edu/power/class_domination.html Much of Chomsky's writing is concerned with such topics, e.g. https://truthout.org/articles/us-guardian-elite-rulers-date-back-to-nation-s-founding/ https://truthout.org/articles/us-guardian-elite-rulers-date-... , which makes the point that the notion of an elite guardian class goes back to the founding of the US, and it in turn was based on ideas inherited from monarchies. A couple of others of Chomsky's are https://chomsky.info/199606__/ https://chomsky.info/199606__/ or https://chomsky.info/20141202/ https://chomsky.info/20141202/ . These are just examples which deal with particular mechanisms of control which are used by elites to achieve outcomes in their favor. Marx and Engels are relevant here also. Here's the opening sentence of Chapter I of the Communist Manifesto (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-m... ): > "The [written] history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." It goes on to discuss power structures in various types of historical society. There's lots more out there - is there any particular aspect you're interested in?

s1artibartfast 6y ago

I think the other posters comment is a pretty pessimistic take. Humans are inherently tribal and a banded together since before we existed as a species. This wasn’t for the advantage of top animal. It offered protection, Stability, and a way to raise young in this environment. Higher primates will share food when they have access but aren’t communes.I would posit that most historic human societies serve the same function. They provide protection from external threats and stabilize chaotic environment. Peasants received protection from their Lords in exchange for taxes. Looking into more recent human history of the US government served much the same function. There was no redistribution of wealth, and no income taxes until they were added on to fund World War I. The idea that governments acting on behalf of society have the goal of Supporting the poor is a relatively new development. National healthcare insurance was largely a development after World War II, and for most of the countries, support of the poor was handled through private charity until late In the 20th century

antonvs 6y ago
I was giving a pervasive example of how "looking after everyone in society" has often not really been the main goal of societies. This is consistent with what you wrote, "The idea that governments acting on behalf of society have the goal of supporting the poor is a relatively new development." > Humans are inherently tribal and a banded together since before we existed as a species. This wasn’t for the advantage of top animal. Modern governments are not tribal societies, though. As I've observed in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25997576 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25997576 , the Communist Manifesto Ch. 1 opens with the sentence, "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles," but adds a footnote about this referring to written history, i.e. history of post-tribal civilizations. > I would posit that most historic human societies serve the same function. Perhaps to some extent, but to help disabuse yourself of the notion of the benevolence of the ruling class in this respect, some of the references in my comment linked above might help. In particular, what Chomsky has to say about the elite "guardian class" in the US: https://truthout.org/articles/us-guardian-elite-rulers-date-back-to-nation-s-founding/ https://truthout.org/articles/us-guardian-elite-rulers-date-...