4 ms·

So long as EV charging doesn't contribute to net peak on the electric grid, then yes, the grid is up to the task. The grid is designed to handle the peak hour

by ghouse 6y ago

So long as EV charging doesn't contribute to net peak on the electric grid, then yes, the grid is up to the task. The grid is designed to handle the peak hour of a ten-year period. Increasing that peak is very expensive. However, because most of the grid is fixed-cost. The marginal cost of generation is between 1/2 and 1/3 the cost of electricity. California is moving to variable electricity prices (so-called Time of Use). Electricity is more expensive between 4-9 PM when it's more expensive to provide electricity. So, if people charge their EVs when it's less expensive to do so, we'll be fine. But regulators will need to continue to align electricity price with electricity cost.

Mountain_Skies 6y ago
We don't have variable pricing for residential usage where I live but you can get a meter for home EV charging installed that does do variable pricing. From 11pm-7am, the cost is a penny per kilowatt hour, so practically free. Outside of those hours, the cost is either seven cents or twenty cents per kwh depending on the time of day and season. A 20X difference in charging cost is a pretty good incentive to plan things out so the car can be charged overnight.
- llampx 6y ago
  /me cries in usury German electricity rates
  - Mountain_Skies 6y ago
    We also have one of the largest coal fueled electric generation plants in the world, so there's a price being paid in other ways.
jbob2000 6y ago
We had time of use in Ontario, but recently got rid of it. It hurts the poor more than it saves electricity. 4-9pm might be the only time I have to do laundry and cook, two of the most energy intensive tasks, if I’m working a 9-5 job that requires me to be physically present. I can’t do it during the day and sometimes I can’t do it on the weekend because of other obligations. So now I’m landed with a “tax” that I have no ability to avoid. And then you drive to Rodeo drive, where stores have their doors wide open in 100 degree heat, while their AC is on full blast, and wonder why the fuck you’re stuck paying the energy tax.
- nayuki 6y ago
  Are you sure that laundry and cooking are your most energy-intensive activities? I live in a house in Toronto and have TOU pricing. After measuring my appliances with a Kill A Watt, I determined that when averaged over an entire year, about 1/3 of my energy usage was for the refrigerator, 1/3 for the HVAC fan (almost entirely for 6 months of winter heating), and 1/3 for literally everything else discretionary (lights, cooking, electronics). I doubt that TOU pricing negatively affected you as much as you perceived.
  - jbob2000 6y ago
    The problem is that you measured energy usage for appliances that have non-discretionary use - ie. I don't get to decide when my fridge or HVAC turns on, that's a factor of the weather outside (for the most part...). Also, since fridges and HVAC fans run continuously, you end up with an averaged out price for energy. Laundry energy use can't be amortized like a fridge can. They use an extreme amount of energy in short bursts. If you time your laundry incorrectly in a TOU setting, you absolutely will have a larger energy bill. I know this because I've been burned by it. 9c/kwH (low TOU) vs. 14c (high) is more than a 50% price increase for a load of laundry.
    - djrogers 6y ago
      You absolutely do get to decide when your AC turns on - programmable thermostats have been a thing for something like 40 years...
    - adrianN 6y ago
      Greetings from Germany, where we pay 24 Eurocents per kWh and poor people still do laundry.
- ghouse 6y ago
  It's not an energy tax. Electricity is more expensive to produce and deliver during 4-9 PM. Flat rates subsidize use during 4-9 PM.
- pengaru 6y ago
mmcconnell1618 6y ago
It will be interesting to see if there are any incentives for vehicle owners or manufacturers to adjust charging times across the grid. For example, all Tesla's in a time zone could communicate and decide which random hour they would begin charging that night so everyone doesn't hit at 2am. My iphone now doesn't charge immediately at night as it understands my typical schedule and just ensures the phone will be full when I wake up. I expect similar capabilities for electric vehicles.
- zdragnar 6y ago
  We already have "demand pricing". I know of some companies who transitioned to electric vehicles (think skid loaders and other yard vehicles) who had to install their own battery systems and generators because by the time the vehicles needed to start charging, they were hit with way way higher than normal electrical prices. I dont know the specifics- i.e. if not all of their vehicles could go a full day of charging- but only that yes, there are mechanisms in place to force those who can afford it to adapt. Everyone else has to hope they can plug into a smart grid that only actually charges when the price drops.

by ghouse 6y ago

Mountain_Skies 6y ago

We don't have variable pricing for residential usage where I live but you can get a meter for home EV charging installed that does do variable pricing. From 11pm-7am, the cost is a penny per kilowatt hour, so practically free. Outside of those hours, the cost is either seven cents or twenty cents per kwh depending on the time of day and season. A 20X difference in charging cost is a pretty good incentive to plan things out so the car can be charged overnight.

llampx 6y ago
/me cries in usury German electricity rates
- Mountain_Skies 6y ago
  We also have one of the largest coal fueled electric generation plants in the world, so there's a price being paid in other ways.

jbob2000 6y ago

We had time of use in Ontario, but recently got rid of it. It hurts the poor more than it saves electricity. 4-9pm might be the only time I have to do laundry and cook, two of the most energy intensive tasks, if I’m working a 9-5 job that requires me to be physically present. I can’t do it during the day and sometimes I can’t do it on the weekend because of other obligations. So now I’m landed with a “tax” that I have no ability to avoid. And then you drive to Rodeo drive, where stores have their doors wide open in 100 degree heat, while their AC is on full blast, and wonder why the fuck you’re stuck paying the energy tax.

nayuki 6y ago
Are you sure that laundry and cooking are your most energy-intensive activities? I live in a house in Toronto and have TOU pricing. After measuring my appliances with a Kill A Watt, I determined that when averaged over an entire year, about 1/3 of my energy usage was for the refrigerator, 1/3 for the HVAC fan (almost entirely for 6 months of winter heating), and 1/3 for literally everything else discretionary (lights, cooking, electronics). I doubt that TOU pricing negatively affected you as much as you perceived.
- jbob2000 6y ago
  The problem is that you measured energy usage for appliances that have non-discretionary use - ie. I don't get to decide when my fridge or HVAC turns on, that's a factor of the weather outside (for the most part...). Also, since fridges and HVAC fans run continuously, you end up with an averaged out price for energy. Laundry energy use can't be amortized like a fridge can. They use an extreme amount of energy in short bursts. If you time your laundry incorrectly in a TOU setting, you absolutely will have a larger energy bill. I know this because I've been burned by it. 9c/kwH (low TOU) vs. 14c (high) is more than a 50% price increase for a load of laundry.
  - djrogers 6y ago
    You absolutely do get to decide when your AC turns on - programmable thermostats have been a thing for something like 40 years...
  - adrianN 6y ago
    Greetings from Germany, where we pay 24 Eurocents per kWh and poor people still do laundry.
ghouse 6y ago
It's not an energy tax. Electricity is more expensive to produce and deliver during 4-9 PM. Flat rates subsidize use during 4-9 PM.
pengaru 6y ago

mmcconnell1618 6y ago

It will be interesting to see if there are any incentives for vehicle owners or manufacturers to adjust charging times across the grid. For example, all Tesla's in a time zone could communicate and decide which random hour they would begin charging that night so everyone doesn't hit at 2am. My iphone now doesn't charge immediately at night as it understands my typical schedule and just ensures the phone will be full when I wake up. I expect similar capabilities for electric vehicles.

zdragnar 6y ago
We already have "demand pricing". I know of some companies who transitioned to electric vehicles (think skid loaders and other yard vehicles) who had to install their own battery systems and generators because by the time the vehicles needed to start charging, they were hit with way way higher than normal electrical prices. I dont know the specifics- i.e. if not all of their vehicles could go a full day of charging- but only that yes, there are mechanisms in place to force those who can afford it to adapt. Everyone else has to hope they can plug into a smart grid that only actually charges when the price drops.