5 ms·

No, the kafala makes it indentured servitude, as was done in the US hundreds of years ago to pay for the expansive one-way trip. Migrant workers generally bene

by 1996 6y ago

No, the kafala makes it indentured servitude, as was done in the US hundreds of years ago to pay for the expansive one-way trip. Migrant workers generally benefitted from it, which is why it never ran short of volunteers. Slavery does not benefit workers, which is why it requires physical capture and subjugation.

khuey 6y ago
Do these people get to stay in and become citizens of the host country after the term of their contract is up? I've never heard of that happening.
- 1996 6y ago
  Can anyone at all become a citizen of the persian countries? No, because they care about preserving their political system and way of life- a bit like Japan We may disagree, but it's their country. And people who don't like it can always leave (yes, I have heard the stories about passports being taken, I'd call that enforcing the contract for the initial term period, and it's not like consulates don't exist)
  - AlotOfReading 6y ago
    You can't preemptively "enforce a contract" by denying someone their basic human rights. Can you explain the ethical system that could possibly lead you to believe otherwise?
    - michaelmrose 6y ago
      I'll take libertarian fantasies safely incubated in a society that won't allow the worst abuses that their philosophy would lead to unchecked for 500 Alex
  - danans 6y ago
    > Can anyone at all become a citizen of the persian countries? They are not Persian countries. They are Arab countries that lie on the southwest shore of the Persian Gulf. There are huge cultural and linguistic differences between the two, to say nothing of the political differences, both historically and down to current moment. Furthermore, those Arab countries have been trying to change the international standard name of the body of water to "Arabian Gulf" to counter their adversary Iran. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf_naming_dispute#:~:text=The%20National%20Geographic%20Society%20uses,to%20this%20body%20of%20water.&text=%22Some%20Arab%20nations%20call%20it,known%20as%20the%20Persian%20Gulf.%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf_naming_dispute#:~... > Can anyone at all become a citizen No, unless you are ancestrally connected to the country or it's co-ethnic neighbors, or are a foreign woman who marries an Arab UAE citizen. Some selected naturalization requirements from the UAE's website (https://u.ae/en/information-and-services/passports-and-traveling/uae-nationality https://u.ae/en/information-and-services/passports-and-trave...): - An Arab individual from Omani, Qatari or Bahraini origin - Arab individual who enjoys full legal capacity, has continuously and lawfully resided in the member emirates for at least seven years - Any person, other than those mentioned above, who enjoys full legal capacity if he has continuously and legally resided in the member emirates for a period of no less than 30 years - A foreign woman married to a UAE National may be granted nationality by citizenship after the lapse of seven years As out of touch as this might seem with modernity, remember that the United States had anti-miscegenation laws on the books until 1967, and only opened immigration from non-white countries in 1965. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws_in_the... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Ac...
  - michaelmrose 6y ago
    You shouldn't be able to sell yourself into slavery. Putting minimum standards you can't opt out of is the only way to maintain basic right in the face of inevitably growing asymmetry that is the inevitable outcome of even a small amount of initial inequality. Having a slightly higher share of current resources makes it possible to tilt the board to obtain a larger share of future resources until an increasingly small portion owns more and more. Ultimately slavery would be the alternative for starvation.
  - khuey 6y ago
    So it's not really anything like the indentured servitude in the American colonies then.
antihero 6y ago
Did you miss the part where they are deceived into taking the jobs and prevented from leaving? > They often end up in the Persian Gulf after responding to deceptive and misleading advertising in their home countries, causing them to either pay large sums or to borrow such sums from employment agents to secure employment in the Gulf and to pay for their transportation, housing and food. When they arrive, they learn that, based on the value of their wage in real terms, it will be nearly impossible to pay off any debt they have incurred or replenish the sums they have expended. This encourages their employers to withhold, delay or simply not pay wages, coercing the workers to remain on the job, sometimes for a lifetime.
- tt433 6y ago
  FWIW this did happen to some indentured Europeans in the New World. I'm nevertheless surprised GP thinks that's excusable or defensible in the 21st century.
  - DenisM 6y ago
    > I'm nevertheless surprised GP thinks that's excusable or defensible in the 21st century They did not say that.
    - hitekker 6y ago
      If you look a few comments below, you can see the poster in question defending modern-day slavery: > We may disagree, but it's their country. And people who don't like it can always leave
tokai 6y ago
Indentured servitude or debt bondage is considered slavery with international agreement.[0] It's by far the most common form of slavery in the modern world. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplementary_Convention_on_the_Abolition_of_Slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplementary_Convention_on_th...

by 1996 6y ago

khuey 6y ago

Do these people get to stay in and become citizens of the host country after the term of their contract is up? I've never heard of that happening.

1996 6y ago
Can anyone at all become a citizen of the persian countries? No, because they care about preserving their political system and way of life- a bit like Japan We may disagree, but it's their country. And people who don't like it can always leave (yes, I have heard the stories about passports being taken, I'd call that enforcing the contract for the initial term period, and it's not like consulates don't exist)
- AlotOfReading 6y ago
  You can't preemptively "enforce a contract" by denying someone their basic human rights. Can you explain the ethical system that could possibly lead you to believe otherwise?
  - michaelmrose 6y ago
    I'll take libertarian fantasies safely incubated in a society that won't allow the worst abuses that their philosophy would lead to unchecked for 500 Alex
- danans 6y ago
  > Can anyone at all become a citizen of the persian countries? They are not Persian countries. They are Arab countries that lie on the southwest shore of the Persian Gulf. There are huge cultural and linguistic differences between the two, to say nothing of the political differences, both historically and down to current moment. Furthermore, those Arab countries have been trying to change the international standard name of the body of water to "Arabian Gulf" to counter their adversary Iran. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf_naming_dispute#:~:text=The%20National%20Geographic%20Society%20uses,to%20this%20body%20of%20water.&text=%22Some%20Arab%20nations%20call%20it,known%20as%20the%20Persian%20Gulf.%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf_naming_dispute#:~... > Can anyone at all become a citizen No, unless you are ancestrally connected to the country or it's co-ethnic neighbors, or are a foreign woman who marries an Arab UAE citizen. Some selected naturalization requirements from the UAE's website (https://u.ae/en/information-and-services/passports-and-traveling/uae-nationality https://u.ae/en/information-and-services/passports-and-trave...): - An Arab individual from Omani, Qatari or Bahraini origin - Arab individual who enjoys full legal capacity, has continuously and lawfully resided in the member emirates for at least seven years - Any person, other than those mentioned above, who enjoys full legal capacity if he has continuously and legally resided in the member emirates for a period of no less than 30 years - A foreign woman married to a UAE National may be granted nationality by citizenship after the lapse of seven years As out of touch as this might seem with modernity, remember that the United States had anti-miscegenation laws on the books until 1967, and only opened immigration from non-white countries in 1965. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws_in_the... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Ac...
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  You shouldn't be able to sell yourself into slavery. Putting minimum standards you can't opt out of is the only way to maintain basic right in the face of inevitably growing asymmetry that is the inevitable outcome of even a small amount of initial inequality. Having a slightly higher share of current resources makes it possible to tilt the board to obtain a larger share of future resources until an increasingly small portion owns more and more. Ultimately slavery would be the alternative for starvation.
- khuey 6y ago
  So it's not really anything like the indentured servitude in the American colonies then.

antihero 6y ago

Did you miss the part where they are deceived into taking the jobs and prevented from leaving? > They often end up in the Persian Gulf after responding to deceptive and misleading advertising in their home countries, causing them to either pay large sums or to borrow such sums from employment agents to secure employment in the Gulf and to pay for their transportation, housing and food. When they arrive, they learn that, based on the value of their wage in real terms, it will be nearly impossible to pay off any debt they have incurred or replenish the sums they have expended. This encourages their employers to withhold, delay or simply not pay wages, coercing the workers to remain on the job, sometimes for a lifetime.

tt433 6y ago
FWIW this did happen to some indentured Europeans in the New World. I'm nevertheless surprised GP thinks that's excusable or defensible in the 21st century.
- DenisM 6y ago
  > I'm nevertheless surprised GP thinks that's excusable or defensible in the 21st century They did not say that.
  - hitekker 6y ago
    If you look a few comments below, you can see the poster in question defending modern-day slavery: > We may disagree, but it's their country. And people who don't like it can always leave

tokai 6y ago

Indentured servitude or debt bondage is considered slavery with international agreement.[0] It's by far the most common form of slavery in the modern world. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplementary_Convention_on_the_Abolition_of_Slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplementary_Convention_on_th...