5 ms·

The CDU is also the worst for trying to enforce their German politics through EU law. I am pro-EU, but I think the authoritarian countries (Poland, Hungary) ne

The CDU is also the worst for trying to enforce their German politics through EU law. I am pro-EU, but I think the authoritarian countries (Poland, Hungary) need to be kicked out or at least punished. The EU states are too diverse right now in terms of values and economy. Hard to effectively lead such a bunch. I wish countries would send their best to the EU. We could get shit done. (tho, overall I am very happy with EU legislation) The vaccine situation, being played by Pfizer, shows exactly that the EU needs to act more confident and show strength.

pelasaco 6y ago
EU need those countries mainly because of cheap workforce, army and to create this buffer between Central Europe and Russia. EU cannot afford to loose the 8th strongest army of Europe and have it potentially getting aligned with Russia. It would be a disaster for Germany, to have Poland as enemy right now and have them doing military exercises together with Russia some km from the Germany/Poland border. Yes, Poland has a strong aversion to Russia, but being kicked out from EU, would force them to search for new partners, and Poland, together with Belarus, would open a tunnel from Moscow to Berlin. Germany dont want it. Russia would do everything to have it. Another point is that a lot of sectors in Germany depends heavily on Polish workforce, specially in the border region like Brandenburg, Saxony and Mecklenburg Vorpommern. > The EU states are too diverse right now in terms of > values and economy. Hard to effectively lead such a bunch. That´s exactly one of the main complains from Hungary and Poland, regarding migration. A diverse country in terms of values is hard to lead. So in that matters you are pretty well aligned with them.
- monopoledance 6y ago
  > EU cannot afford to loose the 8th strongest army of Europe and have it potentially getting aligned with Russia. I very much doubt Poland would align with Russia. They hate them since forever. Poland should be given the choice to play by the law and value human rights or see what nationalism is worth without the EU. They won't leave. They will follow. They have much, much more to lose. > EU need those countries mainly because of cheap workforce Who "needs" what? Exploiting cheap labor from Poland only works for Germany, because legal working standards and payment is allowing for this. German people would benefit too, if general exploitation was fought against. If we tax industries according to their societal, environmental or climate damge, e.g. carbon tax, we can redefine our "dependencies". We don't need cheap farm workers, if we cut the meat industry; we would have much, much, much less demand in labor, land and energy, going for a mostly plant-based food production. Mass meat production is only viable because it's subsidized by the government and it's environmental/climate impact collectivized. The industry needs cheap workforce. Capitalism needs a cheap workforce. Economic growth and exploitation of natural ressources needs a cheap workforce. If we want to survive the shitshow ahead, a lot of things need to change. Compromising with populism and cultural degeneration is contra-productive.
  - pelasaco 6y ago
    > I very much doubt Poland would align with Russia. They hate them since forever. Germany and France were eternal enemies too. Now we cannot imagine Europe without both countries. If we kick Poland out of EU, the anti-EU sentiment will grow and Russia will be the only available partner in the region. At the same time Poland will have a strategic card in their hand. So they will do what they have to do. Look the numbers look like: "Intra-EU trade accounts for 80% of Poland’s exports (Germany 28%, Czechia and France both 6%), while outside the EU 3% go to both Russia and the United States. In terms of imports, 69% come from EU Member States (Germany 27%, the Netherlands 6% and Italy 5%), while outside the EU 8% come from China and 7% from Russia." So if EU kicks Poland out, who are going to be the next partners? > Who "needs" what? Exploiting cheap labor from Poland only works for Germany, because legal working standards and payment is allowing for this. German people would benefit too, if general exploitation was fought against. That's just populism. > The industry needs cheap workforce. Capitalism needs a cheap workforce. Economic growth and exploitation of natural ressources needs a cheap workforce. > If we want to survive the shitshow ahead, a lot of things need to change. Compromising with populism and cultural degeneration is contra-productive. That's just populism too. So IMO, you want to fight populism with populism and fight for diversity, killing the cultural diversity in Europe.
    - monopoledance 6y ago
      I am not advocating for "kicking poland out", but giving it a choice or rather impose penalties for it feasting on the imagery of EU as enemy and shit. Membership comes with rules Poland isn't following. Either get in line or get out. I am saying it's in Poland's interest to play along. Hungary on the other hand is probably fucked beyond at this point. > So IMO, you want to fight populism with populism and fight for diversity, killing the cultural diversity in Europe. You mean the cultural diversity of authoritarianism, workers exploitation and human rights violations? Yes, I would like to kill that.
      - pelasaco 6y ago
        > I am not advocating for "kicking poland out", You literally wrote: "I am pro-EU, but I think the authoritarian countries (Poland, Hungary) need to be kicked out or at least punished."
pelasaco 6y ago
kicking out Poland, means isolating Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia and at the same time, giving a freeway from Moscow to Russia. It would be a bad move thinking from the geopolitics point of view.
- monopoledance 6y ago
  I am sure Poland realizes how much it benefits from EU membership. Let those nationalist parties have their nationalism, or stop violating human rights. The EU could argue open and strong: Have it your way, or play for the collective. Don't let them use populist interpretations, confront them transparently. What's Poland without the EU? They don't have the economy to even fade like the UK. They would lose everything. We don't have to endure their shit, their nationalistic, misogynist and homophobic populism in the EU politics. Sure we depend on them geopolitically, but so do they. They are afraid of Russia much more than the rest of the EU. And they are nothing without the EU economy. Mind you, I am advocating for the enforcement of human rights and social progression, nothing more.
  - pelasaco 6y ago
    > What's Poland without the EU? They don't have the economy to even fade like the UK. They would lose everything. That's the typical arrogance from a west germans. Poland was already a country before EU and I don't remember in the history an non-authoritarian Poland. So that's how they are. So is Turkey and so many other European countries or partners. To ask for a diverse Germany, but try to kick out countries that don't really buy the German vision, is at least contradictory. > Mind you, I am advocating for the enforcement of human rights and social progression, nothing more. No you are not not. You are just repeating the other spectrum of populism. You and Poland are just different sides of the same coin.
    - monopoledance 6y ago
      If you think e.g. the anti-LGBT situation, or women's bodily autonomy in Poland is "just another opinion", we really do not need to talk further indeed. As I said, it's about human rights and there is no room for debate. Sure Turkey and Poland and so on were countries before. And they will be without the EU, no doubt. Being a country does not imply having strong, independent economies. Both Poland and Turkey play their geopolitical role against the EU. They wouldn't have to, if there was much else for them rely on, no? You think Poland would fare better than the UK? You think the EU would talk to Turkey, if Turkey wasn't conveniently dealing with those refugees? Have you talked to a person from Turkey recently? They aren't exactly happy with what they got.
xenoph0n 6y ago
lol, by authoritarian you just mean "not leftist". The UK is far more authoritarian than anywhere in Eastern Europe, arresting thousands of people for speech crime every year, refusing to allow the registration of opposition political parties, engaging in massive surveillance of the population, illegally jailing political dissidents etc etc. Did you advocate kicking us out? No, of course not, because it's done in the cause of liberal globalism (people are jailed for saying things that offend left wing victim groups, the people surveilled are "right wing extremists", the parties refused registration are "far right", the dissidents jailed are "right wing populists" etc) so people like you have no problem with it. I mean you literally advocate "punishing" countries that fail to submit to liberal leftist ideology, and say the EU needs more "shows of strength", you're not "anti-authoritarian, you're just a left wing authoritarian. But yes, go ahead and kick them out, they'll be lucky to be free of the EU's subversion of their national cultures.
- pelasaco 6y ago
  > you're not "anti-authoritarian, you're just a left wing authoritarian. Yes I was kind of avoiding this term, but you nailed it.

pelasaco 6y ago

EU need those countries mainly because of cheap workforce, army and to create this buffer between Central Europe and Russia. EU cannot afford to loose the 8th strongest army of Europe and have it potentially getting aligned with Russia. It would be a disaster for Germany, to have Poland as enemy right now and have them doing military exercises together with Russia some km from the Germany/Poland border. Yes, Poland has a strong aversion to Russia, but being kicked out from EU, would force them to search for new partners, and Poland, together with Belarus, would open a tunnel from Moscow to Berlin. Germany dont want it. Russia would do everything to have it. Another point is that a lot of sectors in Germany depends heavily on Polish workforce, specially in the border region like Brandenburg, Saxony and Mecklenburg Vorpommern. > The EU states are too diverse right now in terms of > values and economy. Hard to effectively lead such a bunch. That´s exactly one of the main complains from Hungary and Poland, regarding migration. A diverse country in terms of values is hard to lead. So in that matters you are pretty well aligned with them.

monopoledance 6y ago
> EU cannot afford to loose the 8th strongest army of Europe and have it potentially getting aligned with Russia. I very much doubt Poland would align with Russia. They hate them since forever. Poland should be given the choice to play by the law and value human rights or see what nationalism is worth without the EU. They won't leave. They will follow. They have much, much more to lose. > EU need those countries mainly because of cheap workforce Who "needs" what? Exploiting cheap labor from Poland only works for Germany, because legal working standards and payment is allowing for this. German people would benefit too, if general exploitation was fought against. If we tax industries according to their societal, environmental or climate damge, e.g. carbon tax, we can redefine our "dependencies". We don't need cheap farm workers, if we cut the meat industry; we would have much, much, much less demand in labor, land and energy, going for a mostly plant-based food production. Mass meat production is only viable because it's subsidized by the government and it's environmental/climate impact collectivized. The industry needs cheap workforce. Capitalism needs a cheap workforce. Economic growth and exploitation of natural ressources needs a cheap workforce. If we want to survive the shitshow ahead, a lot of things need to change. Compromising with populism and cultural degeneration is contra-productive.
- pelasaco 6y ago
  > I very much doubt Poland would align with Russia. They hate them since forever. Germany and France were eternal enemies too. Now we cannot imagine Europe without both countries. If we kick Poland out of EU, the anti-EU sentiment will grow and Russia will be the only available partner in the region. At the same time Poland will have a strategic card in their hand. So they will do what they have to do. Look the numbers look like: "Intra-EU trade accounts for 80% of Poland’s exports (Germany 28%, Czechia and France both 6%), while outside the EU 3% go to both Russia and the United States. In terms of imports, 69% come from EU Member States (Germany 27%, the Netherlands 6% and Italy 5%), while outside the EU 8% come from China and 7% from Russia." So if EU kicks Poland out, who are going to be the next partners? > Who "needs" what? Exploiting cheap labor from Poland only works for Germany, because legal working standards and payment is allowing for this. German people would benefit too, if general exploitation was fought against. That's just populism. > The industry needs cheap workforce. Capitalism needs a cheap workforce. Economic growth and exploitation of natural ressources needs a cheap workforce. > If we want to survive the shitshow ahead, a lot of things need to change. Compromising with populism and cultural degeneration is contra-productive. That's just populism too. So IMO, you want to fight populism with populism and fight for diversity, killing the cultural diversity in Europe.
  - monopoledance 6y ago
    I am not advocating for "kicking poland out", but giving it a choice or rather impose penalties for it feasting on the imagery of EU as enemy and shit. Membership comes with rules Poland isn't following. Either get in line or get out. I am saying it's in Poland's interest to play along. Hungary on the other hand is probably fucked beyond at this point. > So IMO, you want to fight populism with populism and fight for diversity, killing the cultural diversity in Europe. You mean the cultural diversity of authoritarianism, workers exploitation and human rights violations? Yes, I would like to kill that.
    - pelasaco 6y ago
      > I am not advocating for "kicking poland out", You literally wrote: "I am pro-EU, but I think the authoritarian countries (Poland, Hungary) need to be kicked out or at least punished."

pelasaco 6y ago

kicking out Poland, means isolating Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia and at the same time, giving a freeway from Moscow to Russia. It would be a bad move thinking from the geopolitics point of view.

monopoledance 6y ago
I am sure Poland realizes how much it benefits from EU membership. Let those nationalist parties have their nationalism, or stop violating human rights. The EU could argue open and strong: Have it your way, or play for the collective. Don't let them use populist interpretations, confront them transparently. What's Poland without the EU? They don't have the economy to even fade like the UK. They would lose everything. We don't have to endure their shit, their nationalistic, misogynist and homophobic populism in the EU politics. Sure we depend on them geopolitically, but so do they. They are afraid of Russia much more than the rest of the EU. And they are nothing without the EU economy. Mind you, I am advocating for the enforcement of human rights and social progression, nothing more.
- pelasaco 6y ago
  > What's Poland without the EU? They don't have the economy to even fade like the UK. They would lose everything. That's the typical arrogance from a west germans. Poland was already a country before EU and I don't remember in the history an non-authoritarian Poland. So that's how they are. So is Turkey and so many other European countries or partners. To ask for a diverse Germany, but try to kick out countries that don't really buy the German vision, is at least contradictory. > Mind you, I am advocating for the enforcement of human rights and social progression, nothing more. No you are not not. You are just repeating the other spectrum of populism. You and Poland are just different sides of the same coin.
  - monopoledance 6y ago
    If you think e.g. the anti-LGBT situation, or women's bodily autonomy in Poland is "just another opinion", we really do not need to talk further indeed. As I said, it's about human rights and there is no room for debate. Sure Turkey and Poland and so on were countries before. And they will be without the EU, no doubt. Being a country does not imply having strong, independent economies. Both Poland and Turkey play their geopolitical role against the EU. They wouldn't have to, if there was much else for them rely on, no? You think Poland would fare better than the UK? You think the EU would talk to Turkey, if Turkey wasn't conveniently dealing with those refugees? Have you talked to a person from Turkey recently? They aren't exactly happy with what they got.

xenoph0n 6y ago

lol, by authoritarian you just mean "not leftist". The UK is far more authoritarian than anywhere in Eastern Europe, arresting thousands of people for speech crime every year, refusing to allow the registration of opposition political parties, engaging in massive surveillance of the population, illegally jailing political dissidents etc etc. Did you advocate kicking us out? No, of course not, because it's done in the cause of liberal globalism (people are jailed for saying things that offend left wing victim groups, the people surveilled are "right wing extremists", the parties refused registration are "far right", the dissidents jailed are "right wing populists" etc) so people like you have no problem with it. I mean you literally advocate "punishing" countries that fail to submit to liberal leftist ideology, and say the EU needs more "shows of strength", you're not "anti-authoritarian, you're just a left wing authoritarian. But yes, go ahead and kick them out, they'll be lucky to be free of the EU's subversion of their national cultures.

pelasaco 6y ago
> you're not "anti-authoritarian, you're just a left wing authoritarian. Yes I was kind of avoiding this term, but you nailed it.