7 ms·

> Certainly no encounters with a "weird security system" You didn't use mac during the notarization system outage? I coulndn't even use my keyboard and mouse (

by krzyk 6y ago

> Certainly no encounters with a "weird security system" You didn't use mac during the notarization system outage? I coulndn't even use my keyboard and mouse (the one on macbook, NOT bluetooth one) for 2-5 minutes after lid was opened. Never had such issue with Linux, yeah, bluetooth ones might stop working but wired keyboard (or laptop open) works always. Yesterday out of the blue my wifes AirPods Pro stopped working with macbook AND iPhone at the same time - they rejected connection (or actually on mac it looked like they are connected but the sound was coming out of speakers not the pods) and the same situation with iPhone. I had to reset AirPods to make it work. And don't get me started on the completly stupid difference between ctrl+c and cmd+c. One (the standard for everything except macos) is used in terminal and the other in every other app. For me macbook would be great for one thing: installing Linux on it, if it only had the ctrl key in the correct place (that is at the left corner of the keyboard not next to Fn).

tmp538394722 6y ago
Go figure... I actually like that the terminal has its classic Ctrl+ characters unimpeded by the GUI layer, which has its own namespace behind Cmd+ How do you copy text out of your virtual terminal? The Fn key placement on the other hand... I’m with you.
- rzzzt 6y ago
  You select it. No further steps required.
  - quesera 6y ago
    If configured, sure, and if you use the mouse for all text selection. And also if configured, middle-click can paste. Now how about Cut (Cmd+X vs Ctrl+Shift+X)?
    - rzzzt 6y ago
      I don't have an alternative for Cut, unfortunately. How do you select text in your virtual terminal with the keyboard?
      - pdkl95 6y ago
        > How do you select text in your virtual terminal with the keyboard? with xsel(1x) or xclip(1) https://github.com/kfish/xsel https://github.com/kfish/xsel https://github.com/astrand/xclip https://github.com/astrand/xclip
      - Scarbutt 6y ago
        tmux lets select with just the keyboard, even when tmux is on a remote server and you are using it through ssh, you can select to your local clipboard. This is for iTerm, don't know about other terminals. No idea how this works, just tested in Terminal.app and it works too.
  - user-the-name 6y ago
    So every time you slip slightly with the mouse while clicking, you destroy the clipboard contents.
    - rzzzt 6y ago
      True, but if you mess up the selection step, you won't be able to copy to the clipboard what you wanted with a keyboard shortcut, either.
      - stouset 6y ago
        No, they mean that selecting text is a common activity that doesn’t necessarily imply I want to copy it into my paste buffer. If I want to keep the contents of my paste buffer, I have to force myself to remember not to highlight anything, or I have to go back and find the original text to copy again. The number of times I’ve accidentally obliterated important and hard-to-relocate paste buffer contents on Linux by a wayward mouse action easily numbers in the thousands.
        pdkl95 6y ago
        > copy it into my paste buffer Selecting text never copies anything. Selections are just metadata that points back to the X client app that "owns" the selection and presumably also has the selected data. Selecting text simply sets the owner of the PRIMARY selection to the current X client, and "pasting" with middle click is asks the current owner of the PRIMARY selection to copy the selected data into the window targeted by the click. From ICCCM[1]: >> Selections communicate between an owner and a requestor. The owner has the data representing the value of its selection, and the requestor receives it. A requestor wishing to obtain the value of a selection provides the following: The name of the selection The name of a property A window The atom representing the data type required Optionally, some parameters for the request >> If the selection is currently owned, the owner receives an event and is expected to do the following: Convert the contents of the selection to the requested data type Place this data in the named property on the named window Send the requestor an event to let it know the property is available > If I want to keep the contents of my paste buffer, I have to force myself to remember not to highlight anything, You're having this problem because you're using the PRIMARY selection when you should be using the CLIPBOARD selection which is more durable and intended[2] for data transfer and copy/paste-like semantics. The Copy/Paste actions traditionally found in the "Edit" menu usually interact with the CLIPBOARD selection. This should be completely orthogonal to the middle-click feature and other interactions with the PRIMARY selection. You should be able to mix usage of both selections. Try this: select text "foo" use Copy from the Edit menu # CLIPBOARD now points to "foo" select different text "bar" # PRIMARY now points to "bar" move to an editable window use Paste from the Edit menu # pastes "foo" middle click the same window # pastes "bar" Unfortunately, confusion about the X server using selections instead of a global buffer is not well explained. [1] https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xorg-docs/specs/ICCCM/icccm.html#peer_to_peer_communication_by_means_of_selections https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xorg-docs/specs/ICCCM... [2] https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xorg-docs/specs/ICCCM/icccm.html#use_of_selection_atoms https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xorg-docs/specs/ICCCM...
user-the-name 6y ago
> You didn't use mac during the notarization system outage? This has happened literally once in the history of macOS. > And don't get me started on the completly stupid difference between ctrl+c and cmd+c. Ctrl-C and Cmd-C are completely different actions. What is weird is that some OSes use the same keyboard combination for them.
- gnfargbl 6y ago
  You know, this is about the one thing I do like about macOS. Cmd+C/V should indeed be the universal sequence for copy/paste. I particularly hate the way GNOME terminal uses Shift+Ctrl+C/V for this, because if you accidentally hit Shift+Ctrl+C in Chrome then it opens Developer Tools.
  - robohoe 6y ago
    It’s also much more ergonomic on hands and fingers.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    This is classic Linux - a herd of small furry developers all trying to pull a large heavy object in different directions while not listening to what anyone else wants because pulling on things is fun. MacOS is a large heavy object being pulled by a mysterious force in a direction no one is sure they want to go, but at least it mostly works, kind of, on good days. Except when it suddenly changes direction and runs you over. Windows is a large heavy object with an embedded malevolent eyeball and a huge trail of wreckage behind it. People keep signing up for more wreckage, and it's really mystifying.
  - macNchz 6y ago
    Yeah I switched to Linux on my primary work machine a few months ago and I am still flubbing the copy paste combos between the shell and gui apps.
  - rbreaves 6y ago
    I hope I am not shilling too much here , but hey you can try out my Kinto app over here if you'd like. You'll get the keymaps you want. https://github.com/rbreaves/kinto https://github.com/rbreaves/kinto
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
matthewmacleod 6y ago
You didn't use mac during the notarization system outage? I coulndn't even use my keyboard and mouse (the one on macbook, NOT bluetooth one) for 2-5 minutes after lid was opened. True that this is a good example of a security system that affected people negatively – though ironically I was unaffected by this because I was on-site with a customer, working on an annoying network without internet connectivity. But yes – it's fair to say the ecosystem is not perfect. And don't get me started on the completly stupid difference between ctrl+c and cmd+c. One (the standard for everything except macos) is used in terminal and the other in every other app. This is not "completely stupid" – it's just a difference between platforms. The command key sends commands, and the control key sends control codes. The cmd+c combination will copy text in both the terminal and all other applications; ctrl+c will send an interrupt. If anything, this is one of the things that keeps tripping me up working on a Linux desktop after so long – I keep inadvertently sending ctrl+c instead of copying, because the control key is overloaded with both text manipulation commands and control characters! But this is just a muscle-memory and familiarity thing.
- randallsquared 6y ago
  I have found it convenient that in both Linux and Mac terminals, highlighting text copies it, and middle-click pastes. I expect this is one reason why ctrl-c-for-copy isn't as much of a problem as you'd expect on Linux: most people copy/paste with the mouse only.
quesera 6y ago
> And don't get me started on the completly stupid difference between ctrl+c and cmd+c. One (the standard for everything except macos) is used in terminal and the other in every other app. This is completely backwards. In Linux, Copy/Paste is Ctrl+Shift+C/V in various terminal programs, but Ctrl+C/V in other GUI programs In MacOS/OSX/macOS since 1984, Copy/Paste has always been Cmd+C/V. ...because Copy/Paste are OS/GUI shell actions, and Control characters are not the same thing. Microsoft broke this separation in Windows 1.0, and Linux has stupidly aped Microsoft ever since. See also: Microsoft/Linux dialog boxes where the "Continue forward" option is located on the LHS (which in most locales notably including the original context, means "move backward").
- kitsunesoba 6y ago
  Copy/Paste in terminals is one of my greatest Linux peeves. It’s one of those things that just doesn’t stick… I can swap between Ctrl and Command all day but throwing Shift in there screws it all up. Eventually I just started right-clicking in Linux terminals for that particular functionality.
  - rbreaves 6y ago
    Same, and as I mentioned above, writing this was my solution. https://github.com/rbreaves/kinto https://github.com/rbreaves/kinto or http://kinto.sh http://kinto.sh
- gobengo 6y ago
  great post! ty
- indymike 6y ago
  The difference was that Mac keyboards had an extra modifier (pcs had ctl alt and shift, Macs had opt ctl cmd shift) key and pcs generally did not until the windows95 era.
- zepearl 6y ago
  Question: does Ctrl+Insert (copy) and Shift+Insert (paste) work in MacOS? (reason: I mostly copy/paste that way in Linux&Windows, in both shells and apps - I don't have a Mac) Unluckily nowadays some notebooks don't have an insert-key, which makes me sad.
dylan604 6y ago
>You didn't use mac during the notarization system outage? No, I didn't even know it was thing until I read about it here. However, I don't use a lot of apps from the AppStore, so I dont' know if that was a contributing factor. I'm also not one to close and launch apps regularly. Terminal, Browser, TextMate are open 100% of the time. I usually have Photoshop and/or Illustrator open in the background as well. Don't be a quitter, you don't have to be a starter. >And don't get me started on the completly stupid difference between ctrl+c and cmd+c. One (the standard for everything except macos) is used in terminal and the other in every other app. The Mac has had the Cmd key sincd the very first days of Apple. In fact, it was originally two separate keys: open-apple, closed-apple. It was around well before Linux was a glint in Linus' eye.
- krzyk 6y ago
  > However, I don't use a lot of apps from the AppStore I don't have any from AppStore, besides those that are factory installed and as I wrote previously, after resume from suspend my keyboard and mouse werent' working I was thinking that this macbook just died (and it was only 1 week old). Thank god I found out that it needed only simple block of notarization server to make this stupid "security" stop usability. BTW. You could try to see what happens when you are far from WiFi (with poor connectivity) and try to wakup laptop from sleep - the same, keyboard and touchpad don't respond for 1-2 minutes.

by krzyk 6y ago

tmp538394722 6y ago

Go figure... I actually like that the terminal has its classic Ctrl+ characters unimpeded by the GUI layer, which has its own namespace behind Cmd+ How do you copy text out of your virtual terminal? The Fn key placement on the other hand... I’m with you.

rzzzt 6y ago
You select it. No further steps required.
- quesera 6y ago
  If configured, sure, and if you use the mouse for all text selection. And also if configured, middle-click can paste. Now how about Cut (Cmd+X vs Ctrl+Shift+X)?
  - rzzzt 6y ago
    I don't have an alternative for Cut, unfortunately. How do you select text in your virtual terminal with the keyboard?
    - pdkl95 6y ago
      > How do you select text in your virtual terminal with the keyboard? with xsel(1x) or xclip(1) https://github.com/kfish/xsel https://github.com/kfish/xsel https://github.com/astrand/xclip https://github.com/astrand/xclip
    - Scarbutt 6y ago
      tmux lets select with just the keyboard, even when tmux is on a remote server and you are using it through ssh, you can select to your local clipboard. This is for iTerm, don't know about other terminals. No idea how this works, just tested in Terminal.app and it works too.
- user-the-name 6y ago
  So every time you slip slightly with the mouse while clicking, you destroy the clipboard contents.
  - rzzzt 6y ago
    True, but if you mess up the selection step, you won't be able to copy to the clipboard what you wanted with a keyboard shortcut, either.
    - stouset 6y ago
      No, they mean that selecting text is a common activity that doesn’t necessarily imply I want to copy it into my paste buffer. If I want to keep the contents of my paste buffer, I have to force myself to remember not to highlight anything, or I have to go back and find the original text to copy again. The number of times I’ve accidentally obliterated important and hard-to-relocate paste buffer contents on Linux by a wayward mouse action easily numbers in the thousands.
      - pdkl95 6y ago
        > copy it into my paste buffer Selecting text never copies anything. Selections are just metadata that points back to the X client app that "owns" the selection and presumably also has the selected data. Selecting text simply sets the owner of the PRIMARY selection to the current X client, and "pasting" with middle click is asks the current owner of the PRIMARY selection to copy the selected data into the window targeted by the click. From ICCCM[1]: >> Selections communicate between an owner and a requestor. The owner has the data representing the value of its selection, and the requestor receives it. A requestor wishing to obtain the value of a selection provides the following: The name of the selection The name of a property A window The atom representing the data type required Optionally, some parameters for the request >> If the selection is currently owned, the owner receives an event and is expected to do the following: Convert the contents of the selection to the requested data type Place this data in the named property on the named window Send the requestor an event to let it know the property is available > If I want to keep the contents of my paste buffer, I have to force myself to remember not to highlight anything, You're having this problem because you're using the PRIMARY selection when you should be using the CLIPBOARD selection which is more durable and intended[2] for data transfer and copy/paste-like semantics. The Copy/Paste actions traditionally found in the "Edit" menu usually interact with the CLIPBOARD selection. This should be completely orthogonal to the middle-click feature and other interactions with the PRIMARY selection. You should be able to mix usage of both selections. Try this: select text "foo" use Copy from the Edit menu # CLIPBOARD now points to "foo" select different text "bar" # PRIMARY now points to "bar" move to an editable window use Paste from the Edit menu # pastes "foo" middle click the same window # pastes "bar" Unfortunately, confusion about the X server using selections instead of a global buffer is not well explained. [1] https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xorg-docs/specs/ICCCM/icccm.html#peer_to_peer_communication_by_means_of_selections https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xorg-docs/specs/ICCCM... [2] https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xorg-docs/specs/ICCCM/icccm.html#use_of_selection_atoms https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/xorg-docs/specs/ICCCM...

user-the-name 6y ago

> You didn't use mac during the notarization system outage? This has happened literally once in the history of macOS. > And don't get me started on the completly stupid difference between ctrl+c and cmd+c. Ctrl-C and Cmd-C are completely different actions. What is weird is that some OSes use the same keyboard combination for them.

gnfargbl 6y ago
You know, this is about the one thing I do like about macOS. Cmd+C/V should indeed be the universal sequence for copy/paste. I particularly hate the way GNOME terminal uses Shift+Ctrl+C/V for this, because if you accidentally hit Shift+Ctrl+C in Chrome then it opens Developer Tools.
- robohoe 6y ago
  It’s also much more ergonomic on hands and fingers.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  This is classic Linux - a herd of small furry developers all trying to pull a large heavy object in different directions while not listening to what anyone else wants because pulling on things is fun. MacOS is a large heavy object being pulled by a mysterious force in a direction no one is sure they want to go, but at least it mostly works, kind of, on good days. Except when it suddenly changes direction and runs you over. Windows is a large heavy object with an embedded malevolent eyeball and a huge trail of wreckage behind it. People keep signing up for more wreckage, and it's really mystifying.
- macNchz 6y ago
  Yeah I switched to Linux on my primary work machine a few months ago and I am still flubbing the copy paste combos between the shell and gui apps.
- rbreaves 6y ago
  I hope I am not shilling too much here , but hey you can try out my Kinto app over here if you'd like. You'll get the keymaps you want. https://github.com/rbreaves/kinto https://github.com/rbreaves/kinto

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

matthewmacleod 6y ago

You didn't use mac during the notarization system outage? I coulndn't even use my keyboard and mouse (the one on macbook, NOT bluetooth one) for 2-5 minutes after lid was opened. True that this is a good example of a security system that affected people negatively – though ironically I was unaffected by this because I was on-site with a customer, working on an annoying network without internet connectivity. But yes – it's fair to say the ecosystem is not perfect. And don't get me started on the completly stupid difference between ctrl+c and cmd+c. One (the standard for everything except macos) is used in terminal and the other in every other app. This is not "completely stupid" – it's just a difference between platforms. The command key sends commands, and the control key sends control codes. The cmd+c combination will copy text in both the terminal and all other applications; ctrl+c will send an interrupt. If anything, this is one of the things that keeps tripping me up working on a Linux desktop after so long – I keep inadvertently sending ctrl+c instead of copying, because the control key is overloaded with both text manipulation commands and control characters! But this is just a muscle-memory and familiarity thing.

randallsquared 6y ago
I have found it convenient that in both Linux and Mac terminals, highlighting text copies it, and middle-click pastes. I expect this is one reason why ctrl-c-for-copy isn't as much of a problem as you'd expect on Linux: most people copy/paste with the mouse only.

quesera 6y ago

> And don't get me started on the completly stupid difference between ctrl+c and cmd+c. One (the standard for everything except macos) is used in terminal and the other in every other app. This is completely backwards. In Linux, Copy/Paste is Ctrl+Shift+C/V in various terminal programs, but Ctrl+C/V in other GUI programs In MacOS/OSX/macOS since 1984, Copy/Paste has always been Cmd+C/V. ...because Copy/Paste are OS/GUI shell actions, and Control characters are not the same thing. Microsoft broke this separation in Windows 1.0, and Linux has stupidly aped Microsoft ever since. See also: Microsoft/Linux dialog boxes where the "Continue forward" option is located on the LHS (which in most locales notably including the original context, means "move backward").

kitsunesoba 6y ago
Copy/Paste in terminals is one of my greatest Linux peeves. It’s one of those things that just doesn’t stick… I can swap between Ctrl and Command all day but throwing Shift in there screws it all up. Eventually I just started right-clicking in Linux terminals for that particular functionality.
- rbreaves 6y ago
  Same, and as I mentioned above, writing this was my solution. https://github.com/rbreaves/kinto https://github.com/rbreaves/kinto or http://kinto.sh http://kinto.sh
gobengo 6y ago
great post! ty
indymike 6y ago
The difference was that Mac keyboards had an extra modifier (pcs had ctl alt and shift, Macs had opt ctl cmd shift) key and pcs generally did not until the windows95 era.
zepearl 6y ago
Question: does Ctrl+Insert (copy) and Shift+Insert (paste) work in MacOS? (reason: I mostly copy/paste that way in Linux&Windows, in both shells and apps - I don't have a Mac) Unluckily nowadays some notebooks don't have an insert-key, which makes me sad.

dylan604 6y ago

>You didn't use mac during the notarization system outage? No, I didn't even know it was thing until I read about it here. However, I don't use a lot of apps from the AppStore, so I dont' know if that was a contributing factor. I'm also not one to close and launch apps regularly. Terminal, Browser, TextMate are open 100% of the time. I usually have Photoshop and/or Illustrator open in the background as well. Don't be a quitter, you don't have to be a starter. >And don't get me started on the completly stupid difference between ctrl+c and cmd+c. One (the standard for everything except macos) is used in terminal and the other in every other app. The Mac has had the Cmd key sincd the very first days of Apple. In fact, it was originally two separate keys: open-apple, closed-apple. It was around well before Linux was a glint in Linus' eye.

krzyk 6y ago
> However, I don't use a lot of apps from the AppStore I don't have any from AppStore, besides those that are factory installed and as I wrote previously, after resume from suspend my keyboard and mouse werent' working I was thinking that this macbook just died (and it was only 1 week old). Thank god I found out that it needed only simple block of notarization server to make this stupid "security" stop usability. BTW. You could try to see what happens when you are far from WiFi (with poor connectivity) and try to wakup laptop from sleep - the same, keyboard and touchpad don't respond for 1-2 minutes.