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My objection to this kind of thing continues to be: having lists of fallacies arms everyone with fully general counterarguments that permit everyone to avoid th

My objection to this kind of thing continues to be: having lists of fallacies arms everyone with fully general counterarguments that permit everyone to avoid thinking. No argument on anything important is watertight; every important argument is fallacious in some way; dismissing every fallacious argument will allow you to "win" every argument simply by pointing out all the ways in which your opponent is wrong, without ever actually arguing in favour of anything.

ignoramous 6y ago
Fallacies and mental models (like precepts) are also for one to internalize. Not to really only use in debates to win arguments. Unless one a lawyer or a politician or something that stands to gain from untoward made-up agendas. As with anything, the first step is awareness of the flaws, followed by working to correct those to whatever extent one can.
- Smaug123 6y ago
  Indeed! But the site emphatically does not lead with the lesson that the proper use of fallacy-knowledge is to give you the tools to examine your own thoughts. I hold a weak belief that bare lists of fallacies do more harm than good because they don't install the necessary prerequisite of epistemic uncertainty.
rwoerz 6y ago
"everyone" sounds like hasty generalization [1] SCNR [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization#Hasty_generalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization#Hasty_ge...
- Smaug123 6y ago
  Whom does it not so arm?
eeZah7Ux 6y ago
> every important argument is fallacious in some way An argument can be profoundly fallacious or not. A solid argument, pretty much by definition, is solid because there aren't obvious fallacies in it. > dismissing every fallacious argument will allow you to "win" every argument simply by pointing out all the ways in which your opponent is wrong No: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy
- Smaug123 6y ago
  Obviously it's bad logic. I put it in scare quotes for a reason. But having lists of fallacies available makes it a lot easier to commit this particular error of reasoning. I'm not sure I've ever witnessed an argument between normal people which was assisted by one party naming a fallacy.
f154hfds 6y ago
It's interesting - I would think the exact opposite of what you said is true. If people are going to have a meaningful debate, or at least present water-tight arguments to back up some conclusion, they must be aware and explain how these fallacies don't apply in their circumstance. I have the third book in the book list at the bottom of the article, the Art of Argument (and I happen know the authors, which is fun but irrelevant). Many of their examples in the book are actually advertisements, which try to subtly persuade bordering on manipulation. Why would you not want to have tools in your reasoning arsenal to catch manipulation? I should also add that one of the most successful modern fallacies is the straw man, and it crushes meaningful political discourse. How can pointing out a straw man "permit everyone to avoid thinking"? Fallacy awareness actually helps people avoid getting caught in traps on both sides of an argument. I would say this knowledge adds to discourse when used appropriately.
- casion 6y ago
  > I would say this knowledge adds to discourse when used appropriately. We could say this about very nearly everything that exists.
- Smaug123 6y ago
  > How can pointing out a straw man permit everyone to avoid thinking? Because pointing out fallacies is not argument, but feels a lot like it is. Pointing out fallacies allows you to defeat any other argument, but it does not allow you to take a position for anything. It is the perfect tool for allowing you to entrench yourself in your original view, by handily defeating those who would assail you in a fully general way that applies however correct you are. Merely saying "but to do so is to commit the fallacy fallacy" doesn't change the fact that it happens extremely commonly. It's the "when used appropriately" that's the issue. A list of fallacies is probably a good thing to have access to after you've somehow had epistemic humility installed in you. But epistemic humility does not come naturally to most people, and must be taught.
AussieWog93 6y ago
Trying to win arguments by just pointing out fallacies is on the list of fallacies too. It's called "Fallacy fallacy".
- Smaug123 6y ago
  That doesn't change the fact that having access to the resource makes it much easier to commit this fallacy. It's a rare environment where naming a fallacy actually contributes positively to the epistemic atmosphere. It's rather analogous to giving someone access to an easy-to-use extremely-high-power energy source, with a small warning label saying "caution: danger of death", and a wide array of cables and electrical components, and saying "go forth". If you know what you're doing, these components are useful and will allow you to construct safe things. If you don't know what you're doing, you kill yourself with them.
the_snooze 6y ago
I'm on the same boat. From my experience, too often people use these lists as cheap shots against someone's position without actually engaging with those views in good faith. A far more productive way to use knowledge of fallacies is to improve your own reasoning and positioning, not attack others'.

ignoramous 6y ago

Fallacies and mental models (like precepts) are also for one to internalize. Not to really only use in debates to win arguments. Unless one a lawyer or a politician or something that stands to gain from untoward made-up agendas. As with anything, the first step is awareness of the flaws, followed by working to correct those to whatever extent one can.

Smaug123 6y ago
Indeed! But the site emphatically does not lead with the lesson that the proper use of fallacy-knowledge is to give you the tools to examine your own thoughts. I hold a weak belief that bare lists of fallacies do more harm than good because they don't install the necessary prerequisite of epistemic uncertainty.

rwoerz 6y ago

"everyone" sounds like hasty generalization [1] SCNR [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization#Hasty_generalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization#Hasty_ge...

Smaug123 6y ago
Whom does it not so arm?

eeZah7Ux 6y ago

> every important argument is fallacious in some way An argument can be profoundly fallacious or not. A solid argument, pretty much by definition, is solid because there aren't obvious fallacies in it. > dismissing every fallacious argument will allow you to "win" every argument simply by pointing out all the ways in which your opponent is wrong No: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

Smaug123 6y ago
Obviously it's bad logic. I put it in scare quotes for a reason. But having lists of fallacies available makes it a lot easier to commit this particular error of reasoning. I'm not sure I've ever witnessed an argument between normal people which was assisted by one party naming a fallacy.

f154hfds 6y ago

It's interesting - I would think the exact opposite of what you said is true. If people are going to have a meaningful debate, or at least present water-tight arguments to back up some conclusion, they must be aware and explain how these fallacies don't apply in their circumstance. I have the third book in the book list at the bottom of the article, the Art of Argument (and I happen know the authors, which is fun but irrelevant). Many of their examples in the book are actually advertisements, which try to subtly persuade bordering on manipulation. Why would you not want to have tools in your reasoning arsenal to catch manipulation? I should also add that one of the most successful modern fallacies is the straw man, and it crushes meaningful political discourse. How can pointing out a straw man "permit everyone to avoid thinking"? Fallacy awareness actually helps people avoid getting caught in traps on both sides of an argument. I would say this knowledge adds to discourse when used appropriately.

casion 6y ago
> I would say this knowledge adds to discourse when used appropriately. We could say this about very nearly everything that exists.
Smaug123 6y ago
> How can pointing out a straw man permit everyone to avoid thinking? Because pointing out fallacies is not argument, but feels a lot like it is. Pointing out fallacies allows you to defeat any other argument, but it does not allow you to take a position for anything. It is the perfect tool for allowing you to entrench yourself in your original view, by handily defeating those who would assail you in a fully general way that applies however correct you are. Merely saying "but to do so is to commit the fallacy fallacy" doesn't change the fact that it happens extremely commonly. It's the "when used appropriately" that's the issue. A list of fallacies is probably a good thing to have access to after you've somehow had epistemic humility installed in you. But epistemic humility does not come naturally to most people, and must be taught.

AussieWog93 6y ago

Trying to win arguments by just pointing out fallacies is on the list of fallacies too. It's called "Fallacy fallacy".

Smaug123 6y ago
That doesn't change the fact that having access to the resource makes it much easier to commit this fallacy. It's a rare environment where naming a fallacy actually contributes positively to the epistemic atmosphere. It's rather analogous to giving someone access to an easy-to-use extremely-high-power energy source, with a small warning label saying "caution: danger of death", and a wide array of cables and electrical components, and saying "go forth". If you know what you're doing, these components are useful and will allow you to construct safe things. If you don't know what you're doing, you kill yourself with them.

the_snooze 6y ago

I'm on the same boat. From my experience, too often people use these lists as cheap shots against someone's position without actually engaging with those views in good faith. A far more productive way to use knowledge of fallacies is to improve your own reasoning and positioning, not attack others'.